Future Grands Prix?

[S griffin]

Yes, where is the GP thread?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Lewis has offered to help with the proposed Miami layout.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/135921

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Purist

Pardon the minor interruption, but, um, did somebody miss that there's a race (the Spanish GP) this weekend?

I watched it. But I still missed the (a) race.

[Purist]

Well, you're in luck; the best "non-race" of the season is in about two weeks. You might even get the bonus of a mini demo derby at Ste. Devote on Lap 1.

[S griffin]

Yes, Monaco one of the best, not always the most exciting. Expecting a first lap pile up this time. Mirabeau?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Lewis has offered to help with the proposed Miami layout.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/135921

have seen this story mentioned elsewhere...he does make some good points about consulting drivers in much the same way that golfers are often asked to design golf courses.

although i would imagine former drivers are part of this process already.

question about the proposed course though...has any other series raced over this bridge before?

seems a bit weird to me. essentially you have a huge section of track where (i am assuming) there will be no place for spectators? if memory serves (and if im thinking about the right bridge) it is along the water and is lined by trees so there might not even be any vantage points for people on their boats to watch.

i suppose its a bit like the tunnel section of Monaco but if the logic of a Miami street race is to bring the race to the people then why use any part of the city where you cant have spectators and/or where general admission attendees cant see and cant really walk from one side of the track to the other etc?

[S griffin]

Yes I saw it too, but I don’t think asking drivers is a good idea. Big difference with golf. Some ex drivers.

Really I think the Miami layout looks alright. It would be good for sportscars. I just can’t see it happening in F1. We already have Monaco. Don’t think Miami would suit F1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

have seen this story mentioned elsewhere...he does make some good points about consulting drivers in much the same way that golfers are often asked to design golf courses.

although i would imagine former drivers are part of this process already.

I don't golf, so take my comments with a grain of salt!

Clearly part of having a well known golfer involved in the design is to lend part of that golfer's brand to the final product. So course X is designed by golfer Y and clearly some amount of money changes hands for the name being effectively permanently tied to the course.

Also, I don't think its like someone show up and say... "Yeah, move the bunker over a bit", etc. I search and found that Arnold Palmer has a design company that does this.

http://www.arnoldpalmerdesign.com

While Arnold is no longer with us, I expect that is how it was done previously. That it was operated as a business and is probably more "full service" than we may think. And with the much maligned, Tilke Engineering, I expect their major selling point is that they know what they are doing (from a regulation and experience perspective). That has to count for quite a bit when you are looking for design services. And... according to Hermann Tilke's wikipedia page, it lists his occupation (among other things) as "racing driver".

Another factor is the number of golf courses likely dwarf the number of race tracks. So there is more market (and opportunity) for golf course design (and for ex-players to play in that space) than in race track design. So it's probably a tough space to squeeze into given what is likely a limited number of specialty design firms.

Ultimately I think what is unfortunate is that we don't have a design firm that is run by a well respected and famous top level racer. Even then, who knows if that person would generate tracks we would love. They may be no better than Tilke. I expect most designers create designs that match the requirements of whoever is paying the bills.

Maybe Hamilton should start his own design firm?!

Richard

[wolfhound]

I have been looking at proposed circuit in Miami via google maps and I doubt the layout proposed came from anybody with a knowledge of F1 track design. The big issue could be safety in relation to the bridge. It is a 3 lane each side bridge with hard shoulder. Assuming total width of about 12-13 meters (40-44 feet) there is only enough room for the track plus a walk way for track safety crews and no space to put a broken car or places to put recovery equipment. There will also be a need for marshals posts along the bridge.
Most of the bridges used by F1 cars have been quite short but this one appears to be about half a mile long with 2 curves in it.

[chillibowl]

indeed. many differences between golf course design and race track design and while there are quite a few famous golfers who design courses (Palmer, Nicklaus, Norman off the top of my head) no doubt they are just the 'idea guys' with a company or team behind them doing the hard work so yeah there must be a branding component there.

i guess for me the similarity in analogies here is that both require conforming an existing piece of land to meet a sporting challenge so i think there is cross over for drivers to have more input.

not really saying LH should be the one who gets called in to consult but i do feel like we should be asking why drivers dont get called in more to do this...particularity given how many new tracks dont seem to meet the standard that modern F1 cars need in order to be effective on.

as a fan i probably would have a better impression about a new track if i knew driver x who i respected had a hand in its development.

car companies use drivers to help design/set up their cars so i guess i see track design as a bit of an extension of taking advantage of those expertise.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Ultimately I think what is unfortunate is that we don't have a design firm that is run by a well respected and famous top level racer. Even then, who knows if that person would generate tracks we would love. They may be no better than Tilke. I expect most designers create designs that match the requirements of whoever is paying the bills.

Maybe Hamilton should start his own design firm?!

Richard

does Wurz have a track design company? i feel like he would.

Jonathan Plamer is another guy who comes to mind but not sure if his company just manages tracks or to what extent he would be involved in any potential redesign projects.

[Adam43]

Here is an interview with the Tilke.
https://www.eastwoodadvertiser.co.uk...8a52ce0f6f544/

Tilke’s answer to the question of whether there’s any input on track design from top-level drivers is equally honest. His theory on how to make F1 races more interesting might not go down too well in the posher trackside motorhomes. “Of course, we talk to them,” he says. “The problem is always that we try to make a track difficult for drivers, but we have the best drivers in the world, and in Formula 1 the best technology.

Read more at: https://www.eastwoodadvertiser.co.uk...8a52ce0f6f544/

[S griffin]

To be fair, Tilke has done some good circuits

[Mike Harte]

This is really a point that intersects with rules for the cars,technology and tracks. It may be beneficial to the viewing public if track data was not allowed to be shared with the teams, so that their simulators and other IT were unable to provide feedback.


Let the teams carry on using whatever technology they like, but by withdrawing the track data from their IT, they will be returning to the days when the racing was carried out on the track by the driver rather than being aided by a person in a lab coat stuck in a bunker some many, many miles away.

[S griffin]

I see what you mean. But we’ve come so far now. Every team is trying to find little advantages, although you could limit this. Hopefully we won’t need the guy back at the factory making calls in future

[Purist]

Yeah, the simulation data thought is something I wouldn't necessarily mind.

I also started wondering pretty quickly about that bridge in Miami. The curves, given the length of the bridge, are less of a concern to me than the outright confines for that great a distance. Then again, I suppose Monaco gives a little perspective to that issue, given how tight that circuit is in most areas. You'd need wreckers stationed at both ends of the bridge, for sure. If there was space in the median for marshal posts, that might be a more efficient solution in some ways, though that would have its own problems for the marshals getting in and out.

I have have softened somewhat on Bahrain and Shanghai, more on Bahrain, probably. Still, it seems a bit suspicious that so many of his tracks that have actually seen use in F1 come out between 3.3 and 3.5 miles. In fact, Bahrain, Shanghai, Yas Marina, Sepang, Valencia, and Austin are all between 3.35 and 3.45 miles, basically. Dubai and Qatar also essential fit into that window. Widening the range to the full two tenths nets you Aragon, Korea, Kuwait, and Istanbul. In fact, all of Tilke's new F1-type courses, bar Baku and Buriram, fall within a range of 3.15-3.65 miles. He also went from ~15 corners in his work up through 2005 to more like 18-25 from 2008 onward.

Even factoring in the regulations, I should think that some of that sameness would be mitigated by having other concerns do some of the circuits going forward.

[bjohnsonsmith]

One of the best track designs in recent years is COTA. The layout was conceived by 1993 Motorcycle World Champion, Kevin Schwantz and promoter Tavo Hellmund, with Hermann Tilke's help.

Maybe get some more bike racers involved?

[Purist]

They say that, but there are just too many prototypical Tilke features in that layout for me to be easily convinced that Schwantz and Hellmund were the primary driving forces behind that shape. And no, I can't really get enthused about that layout, even just on paper; I wouldn't put it as one of Tilke's top works. That said, I think easing/rounding the apexes on several of the corners could help in a number of respects.

I will also say that Kuwait looks like a simpler design overall than his other recent ones, and with fewer seemingly canned elements as well, at least in how they're put together. I'm at least a little curious to see how F1 would go there, and definitely would be interested in seeing how F1 goes at Buriram (decidedly shorter and much simpler than the standard Tilke fare).

For something that's definitely different, and which design was credited to the rider Paulo Pineiro, I look to Algarve in Portugal. Yes, the landscape helped, but the unique shape, the way it keeps competitors on their toes while still allowing for good racing, and especially its incredible use of the terrain is something I'm not sure I've seen the likes of in another modern circuit.

[S griffin]

Austin is not the best track, but it has some good features. Not sure how long it will stay on the calendar though, that’s the thing

Interesting to hear that news on Kuwait, there’s always suggested GPs floating about, it’s only natural they use him

Algarve is well designed by an ex rider in an excellent location, with great challenges and loads of passing opportunities. Don’t know if that will ever make the calendar though

[bjohnsonsmith]

I like the elevation changes in COTA. As for Kuwait, does F1 need another Gulf based GP?

[wnut]

Tilke's circuits display the same problems as the cars, they are time trial courses and not race tracks.

The major problem is that he never allows a series of same handed corners, he generally always follows a right handed corner with a left handed corner or sweep or visa versa, this means that you cannot use the preceding corner to setup position to overtake the leader in the next corner. The corners onto and at the end of a straight should be same handed, this allows the challenging car to position itself on the first corner and complete the overtake in the second, a switchback eliminates this possibility. This is why overtaking is good on ovals.

Making the corner onto the straight really difficult also helps overtaking, messing it up affects the maximum speed down the straight so any error provides overtaking opportunities to the second car.

P.S. The original Kyalami had 6 consecutive right hand corners!
Also had a reverse camber corner leading onto the straight.

[Purist]

I'm not saying it does, but part of me would like to see these cars on what is a new venue for them. Also, I suspect Kuwait might be a more interesting course overall, and race better, than Yas Marina, particularly.

And I certainly appreciate elevation changes, but at Austin, I think the most interesting ones for how they play into the circuit are at the far end of the track, rather than necessarily that hill at Turn 1. They had all the fill dirt, and were doing the earthworks anyway; I just wish they would have distributed things more evenly around the lap in some respects. (A track like Mid Ohio shows that gentler, rolling terrain can work quite well, and still give the impression of plenty of rise and fall.)

[wnut]

Love to see them at Laguna.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by wnut

Love to see them at Laguna.

Please not — I don't want to see what F1 would do to the circuit.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Love to see them at Laguna.

Wouldn't we all.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Please not — I don't to see what F1 would do to the circuit.

In my book, they get to change nothing.