3-2-1 Boards. What's the point?

[johngee]

Dave. No apology is necessary for bringing the subject up and, as you're not a 'regular troublemaker', your views are more than welcome and, I'm sure valued.
You are, of course, quite right regarding coronor's courts. It's probably one (of the many !) bad habits she's picked up from me as in "it's not you who has to go to the coroner's court" just to shut some people up!

[johngee]

Jim

You're quite correct. However, I don't agree with operating as your point 4 as I don't believe in the 'ivory tower' school of clerking but that's my opinion and, as Claire trained with me, it's hardly surprising she's picked up my habits.
I know many clubs operate in different ways .... it's the quality of the end product that's important

[JimW]

Yes John, there are certainly many different ways of constructing tribal lays and more that one of then may be right! We are always glad to see clerks being visible outside of Race Control and you and Claire set a good example.

My point was really to agree with Dave that we badly need to review how we do things with a view to improvement. I normally hate the worst sort of corporate jargon but "continuous improvement" is not a bad aim for any organisation. I don't think that one can argue that all motorsport is well run in all respects and Dave makes some points for change which I think are unanswerable.

Regards

Jim

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by JamieStewart9

Wow, I didn't know this was already an old and maybe tired debate. Sorry for raking over old stuff.

I guess I'll keep my own counsel on it then. It would just make life a lot easier all round if a sensible non-clashing calendar could be planned together and in conjunction with the circuits, instead of the cards held close to the chest until it's almost too late scenario that currently seems to prevail.

Claire is 100% wrong about one thing though, the marshals could end up in the Coroners Court just as easily as the Clerk of the Course. In bikes it's far more common to have fatalities sadly. I listen quite often to people within motorsport trotting out the old chestnut "It's not you who'll be in front of the coroner" when they have little or no idea of the actual process in the modern world. I've been there as a Race Director, Clerk of the Course, Circuit Manager, Competitor, Riders Representative and Expert Witness on no less than 12 ocassions, so trust me EVERYONE is equally bound by their duty of care and anyones actions can be called into question, not just the Clerk of the Course. (Sorry Claire, but it's a justification I hate to hear used to put down another mans viewpoint.)

I'll get me coat.

Dave

Sorry but you are not getting away with laying that old rubbish on me Dave (this is not Donington with a new Marshals Post signaling system and you are not scaring me with the Red Lights again!!)

I know YOU COULD be in front of the coroner Dave...ANYONE COULD .....however just to pull you back into the world of reality as per today ...who do you think IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT MEETING? just so that you are familiar with the concept, there has to be SOMEONE in charge so although we are "All being responsible" yes we are, yes we are and we could ALL be up before the coroner....but the CoC is ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE (read your Blue Book) and THATS what I ment re "up before the court"...we can for example take my earlier example, the bolt on the track, not noticed by the Marshal but noticed by someone in the crowd...it stays on the track, gets propelled at approximately 80 miles an hour into the face of someone in a single seater race car....now...when all the investigating is being done...do you think the Marshal on the post will be up before the coroner for not clearing something that was seen by a member of the public?...or do you think the C of the Course will be asked WHY HE DIDNT CLEAR?...I think I know which one I would bet on.

I never used it for justification "to put another mans view down" so dont say i did, I used it as its the clerks name or Organisors Name on The Permit, on the REGS not the observers nor all the marshals, Im not saying that they are not important, look what I write about them at every meeting I have had the privilege to be involved with, I always thank them when I go round (and THATS ANOTHER REASON WHY THE CLERK SHOULD GO ROUND AS WELL...I was taught that by my mentor and a good few others) so that the Marshals dont think the Ivory Tower is full of people who dont care about them or anyone else outside.

Im NOT 100 percent wrong Dave...you may have taken it 100 percent wrong thats all.

[JamieStewart9]

Claire you're regurgitating the theory, the reality is very different, believe me. You may have a million and one posts on here and therefore be an authority on any number of things here in cyberspace, but this subject is one that I happen to have unfortunately found myself to be an expert on.

How many times have you been before the coroner as Clerk of the Course?

I have been there 12 times in various circumstances, but in the majority of cases with my name on the authorising document as "Clerk of the Course". (That's not because I'm bad at the job, just because I've run over 370 events in a discipline that happens to be fairly high risk)
So please don't just quote what you've read or been told. The law takes very little account of the Blue Book, the ACU Handbook or the FIM/FIA codes and if you think that's going to be the case, you'll be in for a very nasty surprise.

Some coroners are reasonable and understand the subject matter, but others don't. Some allow themselves to be lead by the lawyers and others don't.

------------------

Anyway, the point of this thread wasn't supposed to be about that kind of stuff. It was meant to be an open discussion on how an outsider (me) saw what I regarded as inefficiencies in the running of some car events.

Most of those same inefficiencies existed in my meetings back in 1993 as well and I made a concerted effort to eliminate them thus enabling me to put more bums on seats and keep the costs down and the meetings vibrant.

I'm not telling you to change the way you work by any means, if that's what you're comfortable with who am I to question it? I'm just saying that sooner or later someone in the car organisation will do so and that will move the goalposts completely. If you want that to be one of the 'circuit owned' clubs, carry on as you are and let events take their course.

An open mind and a blank canvas can be very useful sometimes.

Sorry if I've offended any of you, that was not my intention. I just see the same opportunities here as I did 19 years ago when I watched my first clubmans BRSCC event, because nothing seems to have changed in the intervening period.
There are plenty of very clued up people standing on the bank, in the Fire Tenders, on the Rescue Units, in the Recovery Trucks, in the Pit Lane and in the Assembly Area. Watch them, listen to them and ask them how to improve the events, as they know better than any of us sitting (or standing in my case) in Race Control.

Your call, not mine.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by JamieStewart9

Claire you're regurgitating the theory, the reality is very different, believe me. You may have a million and one posts on here and therefore be an authority on any number of things here in cyberspace, but this subject is one that I happen to have unfortunately found myself to be an expert on.

How many times have you been before the coroner as Clerk of the Course?

I have been there 12 times in various circumstances, but in the majority of cases with my name on the authorising document as "Clerk of the Course". (That's not because I'm bad at the job, just because I've run over 370 events in a discipline that happens to be fairly high risk)
So please don't just quote what you've read or been told. The law takes very little account of the Blue Book, the ACU Handbook or the FIM/FIA codes and if you think that's going to be the case, you'll be in for a very nasty surprise.

Some coroners are reasonable and understand the subject matter, but others don't. Some allow themselves to be lead by the lawyers and others don't.

------------------

Anyway, the point of this thread wasn't supposed to be about that kind of stuff. It was meant to be an open discussion on how an outsider (me) saw what I regarded as inefficiencies in the running of some car events.

Most of those same inefficiencies existed in my meetings back in 1993 as well and I made a concerted effort to eliminate them thus enabling me to put more bums on seats and keep the costs down and the meetings vibrant.

I'm not telling you to change the way you work by any means, if that's what you're comfortable with who am I to question it? I'm just saying that sooner or later someone in the car organisation will do so and that will move the goalposts completely. If you want that to be one of the 'circuit owned' clubs, carry on as you are and let events take their course.

An open mind and a blank canvas can be very useful sometimes.

Sorry if I've offended any of you, that was not my intention. I just see the same opportunities here as I did 19 years ago when I watched my first clubmans BRSCC event, because nothing seems to have changed in the intervening period.
There are plenty of very clued up people standing on the bank, in the Fire Tenders, on the Rescue Units, in the Recovery Trucks, in the Pit Lane and in the Assembly Area. Watch them, listen to them and ask them how to improve the events, as they know better than any of us sitting (or standing in my case) in Race Control.

Your call, not mine.

Now Dave I have got to pull you on this, because you seem by your post to be calling my ability into question, .its the second time you have made reference to you having more experience than I with regards to a coroner, one thing that believe me I (or indeed anyone) would be and are very proud to say "Yes Dave...you have...and thank GOD for that" yet you dont acknowledge the fact that what i speak IS THE TRUTH, in fact...you seem to now be actually trying to discredit me and you do not have the authority to do that....I have not done it to you, please dont quote me as saying things I've Read or heard when i am not quoting them as things Ive read or heard AT ALLThe majority of the time (by your own words) you have been there as a COC....therefore adding credability to my argument that the CoC is ultimately responsible...but please...dont take my word for it...go to the MSA and seek confirmation .....I think I have admitted (earlier post) that we could all end up there, as a witness etc but once again...just to confirm (AS YOU HAVE ALSO) its more likely gonna be the CoC who does.. The amount of post I have in a motorsport forum has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with the real world Dave ...as you seem to want to highlight /indicate....so WHY ARE YOU MENTIONING MINE THEN? I didnt...(I dont think) say "Dave because Ive posted a load more posts than you blah blah " did I?...nope...that has rather lowered my aspect of your opinion because quite simply, children tend to reference like that....not adults.

You make me laugh....you are agreeing with me in regards to things need to change yet when someone new comes along with new ideas ....I bet (as you have seemed to do here) you are one of the ones who will say "WHAT DO THEY KNOW?" Were you a newbie once Dave?...did you have your licence and think you could change the world?....did you change it? obviously not or you wouldnt be on here complaining about it and saying nothings changed in 19 years ....dont have a go at someone because you think they are "new or wet behind the ears" Dave, have an argument with them over FACTS not how many posts they have on 10/10ths

If all these people are out there on the rescue trucks and post etc Dave, waiting to do a better job can you explain why you have not utilised them and pushed forward with your crusade? also can you explain why the intake of CoC's has fell in the last few years? why it is that there are not a load of people screaming to organise events on that front?...there are clubs dont get me wrong....there are also promotors...all think they can do it, as I said earlier...all fighting for the SAME custom rather than finding different ones but can you tell me what you have done to change the world?.. because if all you can think of is stopping them using a 3 minute countdown board or getting rid of a C o C clearing a circuit then I dont think thats gonna change the Motorsport world is it??? at least I can say one thing Dave...I have and AM trying a different approach......

I have stated before that most people are P ed off because the cost of everything is going up because FUEL etc...its a bad time, but if you honestly think that you can do better Dave ....and you have the team you mention above to do it ..and are going to tell the MSA that they dont need a clear at the end of a race and you are going to do it your way....then by all means,,, go get em tiger... as tescos say....every little helps!!!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by JamieStewart9

------------------

An open mind and a blank canvas can be very useful sometimes.

Sorry if I've offended any of you, that was not my intention. I just see the same opportunities here as I did 19 years ago when I watched my first clubmans BRSCC event, because nothing seems to have changed in the intervening period.
There are plenty of very clued up people standing on the bank, in the Fire Tenders, on the Rescue Units, in the Recovery Trucks, in the Pit Lane and in the Assembly Area. Watch them, listen to them and ask them how to improve the events, as they know better than any of us sitting (or standing in my case) in Race Control.

Your call, not mine.

Dave. You're hardly an outsider and having worked with you, you're better qualified than almost anybody else (certainly on here ) to contribute (or indeed start) this debate. You're almost certainly aware of the attitude of the MSA to this sort of 'public' discussion and therefore I'll choose my words very carefully.
It's the rule book that needs to be rewritten, to include the various dispensations that were issued in the days of Racing Ahead and reflect the modern developments in cameras and communications. There's far too much of the 'we've always done it this way' attitude and a repitition of the same regulations fom year to year..... you know that and so do I.
You also know, Dave, that we (C of C's) are subject to scrutiny and report by the MSA Steward and our authority to deviate fom the rule book/accepted practice can be limited, more than many people think. I've got sufficient background to get away with it from time to time but I'm still careful.
I hope this experience hasn't put you off contributing to debates in future!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>how you are going to let someone go from a spectator area to the Marshal post or visa versa Max without putting someone at risk while a circuit is live is beyond my comprehension!!!

Heavens to Betsy, we can put a man on the moon but we can't get a piece of paper over a strip of Tarmac. Just stick it on Tenths thereby improving both efficiency and transparency. I mean, there's probably a video of the incident on YouTube before JG picks up the report in his car

As you say, it's a red herring. A peripheral. But there's been a lot of red herrings on here, maybe if the sport looked after the pennies the pounds would look after themselves.

With apologies for the appalling mixed metaphors.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Tim you didn't offend me hon xxx you've always been my favourite

hmm I don't want a Clerk to have favourites, need to be totally impartial!
;-)

[dtype38]

In support of Green Flag Laps and 3-2-1 Boards.... Ulp!

Well, I guess this is going to make me unpopular regarding "efficiency", but as a competitor I don't find them a waste of time at all. Let me explain:

The time in the paddock before any race can vary from a quiet chat with friends to a mad panic because of a problem with my race car. Similarly in the forming-up area I might be having a happy chat with co-competitors or seriously worrying about the car and if everything is going to work properly.

But then its out onto the track and a proper chance to check things out. Forming up on the grid you get to properly see the layout of the cars and who is where around you. You usually know who is quick and so can form a rudimentary plan of the run down to the first corner. Then the green flag waves and you get the practice start allowing you to check the clutch bites properly and the engine pulls as it should, as well as what sort of grip the tarmac has on the day. The green flag lap is then an important time. I completely disagree that it's only needed on slicks. Without this lap I would have absolutely no idea what my tyres and brakes are going to be like into the first corner. I would also disagree with anyone who says I should therefore just be more cautious into the first corner. Unless it's in a one make series, every set of tyres and brakes on the grid will be at a different state of grip when they arrive. Might as well just spray water all over the first corner and stand well back.

So with the important job of getting everything up to temp done it's onto the grid and the 3-2-1 Countdown. Time to do the final run through checklist. Safety first. Extinguisher pin out, harness tight, helmet strap snug, visor fully down, gloves overlapping sleeves, nothing loose, practice reaching for extinguisher pull and engine cutout. Then vehicle checks. Brake pedal firm, throttle responsive, no warning lights, light switch correct, dials all where they should be, good view in mirrors. Nealy time.... control heart and breathing.... visualise run to first corner.

Then its the 5 second board. Into gear, bring the revs up, watch the lights. Time to go racing.

Personally I find this all a necessary part of getting ready for a race. It get my head in the right place and gives me the confidence to set aside all other thoughts and focus 100% on the race.

On the one occasion I've had the misfortune to do one of these "straight from the forming up area onto the grid and start" type meetings I hated it. I doubt I'll be entering that sort of meeting again.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by dtype38

.......... it's onto the grid and the 3-2-1 Countdown. Time to do the final run through checklist. Safety first. Extinguisher pin out, harness tight, helmet strap snug, visor fully down, gloves overlapping sleeves, nothing loose, practice reaching for extinguisher pull and engine cutout. Then vehicle checks. Brake pedal firm, throttle responsive, no warning lights, light switch correct, dials all where they should be, good view in mirrors. Nealy time.... control heart and breathing.... visualise run to first corner.
........

each to their own; personally I do the above in the assembly area... but then I don't get a lot of time on the grid, I'm usually down the back

[JamieStewart9]

I'll leave the cyberspace ping-pong with Claire, as it's obviously going nowhere. I have similar conversations with Bernadette sometimes and in the end we simply have to agree to disagree or I won't get my ironing done. (Don't bite Claire, that's just a chauvanistic joke - John made me do it!)

Green Flag Laps are compulsory in bike racing (and rightly so). We cannot do an out lap from pit lane all the way round to the grid and call that a green flag lap, even if that's just 100 yards short of a full lap. So we have to get creative. Most circuits were set up by car clubs or car oriented people and they have (for us) Parc Ferme and Assembly areas the wrong way round. Thruxton for example.
So we tend to swap them over to speed up our gridding up process, which we do whilst clearing up from the previous race. At Mallory Park for example, we can start putting bikes on the grid from our assembly area by the Oval Loop as soon as the last bike has taken the chequered flag and is going under the bridge.

Gridding up at Brands Hatch is via the short section of road that I had put in between the petrol pumps and the top straight back in 1999. We take the bikes from the previous race/practice off circuit at the end of the Cooper Straight directly into Parc Ferme (which is the Cooper Straight half of that area) and again this means as soon as the last bike is on the top straight, we can release the next grid to the startline from the assembly area (right hand side of the same area) via the little road directly onto the top straight to form up whilst we are picking up crashed bikes or whatever else we need to be doing. I can run 16 races of 16 laps each on a Sunday at Brands Hatch (10am start time) with the use of that one little modification.

I know some car clubs now use the Melbourne Loop at Donington to perform a similar short cut routine, but it still is not the norm elsewhere.

If I were running a car club, I would start back where I did in the early 90s with the question "Why are we doing that?" about pretty much everything involved in the layout of a meeting.
I know that some of our solutions won't suit cars, but there are other short cuts that could be used for cars that are not suitable for bikes.

The idea is to give the competitors more tracktime for less money by thinking outside the box.

Don't worry John, I don't get too bothered about being shouted at (metaphorically), Bernadette is my 4th wife, she says that's because I'm unbearable...... I don't know quite what she means....

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by JamieStewart9

I'll leave the cyberspace ping-pong with Claire, as it's obviously going nowhere. I have similar conversations with Bernadette sometimes and in the end we simply have to agree to disagree or I won't get my ironing done. (Don't bite Claire, that's just a chauvanistic joke - John made me do it!)

Green Flag Laps are compulsory in bike racing (and rightly so). We cannot do an out lap from pit lane all the way round to the grid and call that a green flag lap, even if that's just 100 yards short of a full lap. So we have to get creative. Most circuits were set up by car clubs or car oriented people and they have (for us) Parc Ferme and Assembly areas the wrong way round. Thruxton for example.
So we tend to swap them over to speed up our gridding up process, which we do whilst clearing up from the previous race. At Mallory Park for example, we can start putting bikes on the grid from our assembly area by the Oval Loop as soon as the last bike has taken the chequered flag and is going under the bridge.

Gridding up at Brands Hatch is via the short section of road that I had put in between the petrol pumps and the top straight back in 1999. We take the bikes from the previous race/practice off circuit at the end of the Cooper Straight directly into Parc Ferme (which is the Cooper Straight half of that area) and again this means as soon as the last bike is on the top straight, we can release the next grid to the startline from the assembly area (right hand side of the same area) via the little road directly onto the top straight to form up whilst we are picking up crashed bikes or whatever else we need to be doing. I can run 16 races of 16 laps each on a Sunday at Brands Hatch (10am start time) with the use of that one little modification.

I know some car clubs now use the Melbourne Loop at Donington to perform a similar short cut routine, but it still is not the norm elsewhere.

If I were running a car club, I would start back where I did in the early 90s with the question "Why are we doing that?" about pretty much everything involved in the layout of a meeting.
I know that some of our solutions won't suit cars, but there are other short cuts that could be used for cars that are not suitable for bikes.

The idea is to give the competitors more tracktime for less money by thinking outside the box.

Don't worry John, I don't get too bothered about being shouted at (metaphorically), Bernadette is my 4th wife, she says that's because I'm unbearable...... I don't know quite what she means....

She must be very proud and happy

[tristancliffe]

Leave assembly area and drive to grid. This is not always a full lap, so can't substitute a green flag lap for warming tyres, water, oil, brakes, driver brain. If the assembly area is PRIOR to the grid (e.g. Snetterton or Brands) then this might only be 300 meters.
Sit on grid waiting for everyone to form up. Despite some drivers having raced for 30 years, they still seem to forget how to form up quickly or what side of the track they're on, or who is around them on the grid. Never understood that bit.
Once everyone is in place, we have 1 minute and 30 second boards, then the green flag. This is never (well, rarely) 1 minute or 30 seconds. Both are usually done in 20 seconds. I would suggest the boards have the numbers changed to 3 and 2 (as in 3, 2, 1). The green flag is the 1. But then money has to be spent to buy new numbers, the cost of which will be passed onto the competitor. So why bother - we all know that the 1 minute board isn't 1 minute.
After the green flag lap, the grid reforms. This takes time, as the experienced drivers nearer the back have all forgetten where they need to be again (!!!!!). Then we get a 5 second board, and then we're off.

I don't see where much time can really be saved? Perhaps if all the assembly areas were PRIOR to the grid, then we could save doing half or 98% of a full lap just to get to the grid. The actual countdowns (1m, 30s, green or 5 sec, lights on, lights out) don't take very long and help concentrate the mind quite a lot.

[Flat Out Farr]

This is getting miles too serious!

I used to compete at Lydden when Bill Chesson ran race meetings there.

he used to want us to enjoy our racing.

There was a Lydden minute (approx 15 sec max); great for us single-seater drivers as we wouldn't over heat on the grid !!

Happy days

[dtype38]

Quite... and that's the point. The Lydden minute is alive and well at race tracks all over the country. Like tristancliffe says, they're just 3-2-1 boards. Bit like the ones at the side of the track... they don't have units, just roughly even spacing. So getting rid of them doesn't really save 3 mins, only about 1!

[tristancliffe]

If that! I'd say you'd save 30 seconds by getting rid of them. And give the drivers at the back less time to prepare themselves. And less time for marshals to get out of the way - how many aborted starts do we want because a marshal tripped up trying to get off the grid three times faster than they've ever had to?

[EvilPumpkin]

Interesting thread! There's all sorts of different points that I'd like to comment on (even though I don't think most of them are relevant to the thread title! )

For my own part, I've yet to go to an event in the UK where there were any (what I would consider) serious unnecessary hold ups. The advent of circuit curfews has been very helpful in that respect. I've not really come across the 3 minute thing, but then I don't work pitlane, so unless I happen to have a post opposite, I wouldn't really notice.

Some other points.

1. Bolts on the track
   While I agree that in an ideal world, Marshals would locate this, that doesn't always happen. Particularly if it's a very large post with a very small crew. We've all been on posts where you may have 3 people if you're lucky. That doesn't always leave time for a thorough circuit check, particularly if at least one of the crew is frantically scribbling a written report....! Oil is another thing that sometimes is only located when someone drives over it. It's not always visible particularly in poor weather conditions.
   I've been at circuits where the Rescue unit does a sweep as well, which also works.
   Does the course car coming round at the end of a session really hold things up that much?
   
2. Green Flag Lap
   Given the high level of expertise in this thread, you can probably answer a question for me. I had always understood that one of the principal purposes of a green flag lap was for the drivers to familiarise themselves not only with the circuit, but also the location of the flag posts. Otherwise, why bother to hold out the flags?
   
3. Splitting classes and politics.
   The sorry state of car circuit racing in Ireland is a cautionary tale that the UK Clubs really need to take note of. A combination of politics and infighting - in conjunction with a severe recession - has virtually killed Irish racing. A club that can manage to field 10 cars on a grid these days is doing very well. Mondello Park have done their best to stop the rot - mostly by taking over both the Marshals' Club and the majority of work in the tower - but despite their hard work, it seems it was ultimately too late to do very much good.
   
   Seriously, take a long hard look guys. Because if nothing is done, then that's the future. And it's not pretty.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Interesting thread!
Green Flag Lap

1. Given the high level of expertise in this thread, you can probably answer a question for me. I had always understood that one of the principal purposes of a green flag lap was for the drivers to familiarise themselves not only with the circuit, but also the location of the flag posts. Otherwise, why bother to hold out the flags?

I'd rather hope that the drivers would have worked that out in practice.......

and I reckon the flags being hung out are to remind the more "adrenalined" of us that we haven't actually started racing yet........

Not that I have a "high level of expertise"

[dtype38]

I thougth the flags were hung out to confirm that the section of track was checked and cleared, and that the post was manned and ready....


Hey-ho!

[Tim Falce]

I thought flags were for other people.

[djinvicta]

Wasnt Tescos, was it..It was Asda that "every little helps"....

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Wasnt Tescos, was it..It was Asda that "every little helps"....

no Tesco's is every little helps not Asda...