Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[Maelochs]

Not sure how they would work with fully enclosed wheels---but I bow to the knowledge of others. I had thought any vertical airflow conditioner not called a turning vane was called a barge board.

Anyway ... I hope something the crew tried Did work. I'd love to see the DWing spank the whole P-class.

[CyberMotor]

I predict the DWing is going to be amazingly fast on its home track. They've been putting a whole of time and effort into this and they have something to prove.

[joeb]

Thanks for the lesson on barge boards. I'm looking quite forward to seeing the DW this week. It is one of the 2 most interesting cars on the grid for sure.

[EDR1998]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Not over the body, around.

I haven't read anything about a DW test - is there a story online?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by EDR1998

I haven't read anything about a DW test - is there a story online?

Depends do you consider this forum as online?

Anyways, welcome to the forum!

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by EDR1998

I haven't read anything about a DW test - is there a story online?

You won't. Friend of the team. What Joeb said.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

still don't get it.

According to wikipedia, the deltawing 2012 version is 103.0 cm (40.55 in) high.
It's claimed to haved weighed 475 kg (1047 lbs).

For comparison:
The Sherbourne Padua also is 103.0cm high. I couldn't find its weight, and I'm
not sure which one of these actually gives the more tormenting ride over time.






In 2009, user matinumac reports: "I'm constantly being told I got such a small
belly, I'm in my 39th week and my belly's max circumference is 103.0cm. Last
week my doc estimated my child to 2500 grams. Anybody else out there with
that small a belly?" Matinumac, we can tell you that the coupe version of the
deltawing definitely has more circumference around its thickest spot than you
do, don't you worry! You won't have to push out a fully bred racing driver either.









The Horizon Fitness Indoor Cycle S3 also measures at 103 cm height, weighing 43 kg.
Interestingly enough the fuel usage of the S3 is measured in gallons (gatorade) per mile,
the inverse ratio compared to the DW. Something's up here...






Happy monday to all of yous

[EDR1998]

Haha, thanks Joeb! I just wondered if there was more I could read - I couldn't find anything anywhere else. Insider info?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

still don't get it.

According to wikipedia, the deltawing 2012 version is 103.0 cm (40.55 in) high.
It's claimed to haved weighed 475 kg (1047 lbs).

For comparison:
The Sherbourne Padua also is 103.0cm high. I couldn't find its weight, and I'm
not sure which one of these actually gives the more tormenting ride over time.

Great post. I love it. Spot on parody!

Richard

[deltawing]

Why barge boards? It makes no sense on a car where you want as much air as possible to go under the floor.

[miatanut]

Well, we have another data point in what is still a pointless exercise, due to inadequate data.

At Petit Le Mans, the Panoz coupe version of the DW did a best lap which was fifth of the 11 prototypes, and the prototypes were mostly Daytona Prototypes.

It was doing the same length stints as the leading DP's. Slightly longer. The Panoz coupe version of the DW supposedly has a 45 liter fuel tank. The DP's are allowed 91 liters. That would imply it was using about half the fuel. Maybe they enlarged the fuel tank and kept that a secret. Panoz claims it has a 1.9 liter engine. The turbo DP's are allowed 3.5 liters. The DP's supposedly make 550-600 HP. Panoz claims their DW makes 350 HP. In the worst case, it is at about 2/3 the horsepower, possibly less.

So, it is turning competitive lap times at about 2/3 the fuel consumption.

"But it's outside the rules!"

Yes. The rules are broken. They force people into designing inefficient cars. The whole point of this exercise has been to demonstrate it is possible to have the same speeds using less resources.

[MkEagle]

Originally Posted by deltawing

A P2 does not have vortex generators on both sides, so the floor, although bigger, does not produce any near the DF numbers that the DW produces with smaller floor. The DW makes about 20-25% less DF than a conventional P2 with wings and splitter, but the drag is more than 50% lower... I should say "it was" as now they put wings at the rear and the drag numbers will increase.

The Panoz team talks about the DeltaWing Coupe’s lack of downforce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNRTNtmS_BM


“We’ve been working on the performance level, not just the reliability over the past few months and we’re to the point where we need to be more competitive in the class. And a lot of that comes down to overall downforce. In order to take the next step, we’re trying new aero configurations to make up our deficiencies in downforce. And we have more changes coming in 2015. We’ve got a new gearbox and new suspension in the works, both of which will be easier to work with and will tidy up the rear of the car.”

http://www.deltawingracing.com/news/...town-race.html


The DeltaWing Coupe finally gets a high-downforce package and a good race result.

“The car was handling really well.”

http://www.deltawingracing.com/news/...etown-rac.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19aSem4H3xk

[MkEagle]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Well, we have another data point in what is still a pointless exercise, due to inadequate data.

At Petit Le Mans, the Panoz coupe version of the DW did a best lap which was fifth of the 11 prototypes, and the prototypes were mostly Daytona Prototypes.

It was doing the same length stints as the leading DP's. Slightly longer. The Panoz coupe version of the DW supposedly has a 45 liter fuel tank. The DP's are allowed 91 liters. That would imply it was using about half the fuel. Maybe they enlarged the fuel tank and kept that a secret. Panoz claims it has a 1.9 liter engine. The turbo DP's are allowed 3.5 liters. The DP's supposedly make 550-600 HP. Panoz claims their DW makes 350 HP. In the worst case, it is at about 2/3 the horsepower, possibly less.

So, it is turning competitive lap times at about 2/3 the fuel consumption.

"But it's outside the rules!"

Yes. The rules are broken. They force people into designing inefficient cars. The whole point of this exercise has been to demonstrate it is possible to have the same speeds using less resources.

The high-downforce 2014 DeltaWing Coupe is 2 seconds slower than the 2012 Nissan DeltaWing at Road Atlanta.

http://www.imsatiming.com/Results/

[Juntos]

Maybe cause of the tires. Scoot over.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by MkEagle

The high-downforce 2014 DeltaWing Coupe is 2 seconds slower than the 2012 Nissan DeltaWing at Road Atlanta....

Some posts ago you were talking about L/D, so there is your story

[optica]

Originally Posted by MkEagle

The high-downforce 2014 DeltaWing Coupe is 2 seconds slower than the 2012 Nissan DeltaWing at Road Atlanta.

http://www.imsatiming.com/Results/

Check out 2012 P2 times and compare with 2014 Ligier.

[Maelochs]

Just as there are a wide range of options allowed within the rules for other options (different displacements for NA and forced-induction engines, different weights for different chassis types) the rules also allow for a car with a much smaller engine and a lower minimum weight.

DWing is built to one of the optional rulesets withing TUSC P-class rules. Anyone who wants can build his or her own mini-car and and show up at Daytona and sue TUSC if the car isn't allowed to run. Shoot, Panoz was trying to sell DWings ... If someone bought a DWing and widened the front track, TUSC would disallow it?

IndyCar fans, who have been screaming for open rules since the series went spec, had about the same reaction. When faced with an Actual Prototype, most people howled because it was unconventional and original.

DWing isn't proving anything we didn't already know, except that the optional P-class rules in TUSC allow for a wide range of chassis types in the class, and could be exploited by other teams looking to liven up the series.

It's just me, I guess--I have always liked the contrast of huge, heavy, powerful cars and light, nimble cars battling on equal footing. DWing shows it is about as good as a P2 or a DP--isn't that what we want? Latitude in the rules which allows innovation but at the same time keeps all the different chassis/engine combinations about on par? Without race-by-race BoP?

I see the DWing, and I am looking at real racing. The only thing that would be better would be a couple other cars in the "DeltaWing" sub-class, with equally original designs---maybe an AWD Lites car and full ground effects, including skirts, or something.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.motorsport.com/tusc/news/...hometown-race/
So it turns out the Deltawing lost first and second gear around Hour 7. They had to nurse the car to the finish, which is why they couldn't fight for the podium.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by MkEagle

The high-downforce 2014 DeltaWing Coupe is 2 seconds slower than the 2012 Nissan DeltaWing at Road Atlanta.

http://www.imsatiming.com/Results/

I think drag from the coupe might have something to do with that.

[awegrzyn]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://www.motorsport.com/tusc/news/...hometown-race/
So it turns out the Deltawing lost first and second gear around Hour 7. They had to nurse the car to the finish, which is why they couldn't fight for the podium.

It's possible to drive RA without 2nd gear. In iRacing for example, some just roll the car through 7th in 3rd gear and claim it's faster.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://www.motorsport.com/tusc/news/...hometown-race/
So it turns out the Deltawing lost first and second gear around Hour 7. They had to nurse the car to the finish, which is why they couldn't fight for the podium.

Yeah I noticed that they started to fall back closer to the PC cars. But atleast they made it to the finish and also looked competitive.

[Maelochs]

It might be possible to race RA in a Sim with only 3-7 or whatever---wait, is that in a 1.9-liter, 350-hp 800-lb sim car or a P2 sim?

I'd imagine if the DWing didn't have a use for those gears they'd find a way around them ... shorter first gear because the launches aren't a big deal, drop second entirely, and just limp up into what used to be third and then never go back to first.

I'd assume (admittedly not knowing anything) that if the team said they had to nurse the car because it lost two gears, then losing those gears (particularly second) probably made a difference.

Anyway, the DWing was a contender at PL:M, where it had been an embarrassment everywhere else all year. That made me a little happier. Hopefully it comes back strong in 2015 and continues to improve.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by MkEagle

The high-downforce 2014 DeltaWing Coupe is 2 seconds slower than the 2012 Nissan DeltaWing at Road Atlanta.

http://www.imsatiming.com/Results/

OK, I've always been slagging the Panoz version of the DW because I thought they were making an embarrassment of the concept, but we now have a side-by-side comparison between an "inferior" version of the DW and the prototypes it was competing against. If this one had been two seconds faster, it would have set fastest lap by 1 1/2 seconds, while doing it with a 1.6 liter engine, less than half the size of the turbo allowed for a DP.

In any case, I think this is one of the rare instances where a DW variant got to the end of a race, didn't spend a ton of time in the pits, and gave us enough data to start making some meaningful comparisons.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

It's just me, I guess--I have always liked the contrast of huge, heavy, powerful cars and light, nimble cars battling on equal footing. DWing shows it is about as good as a P2 or a DP--isn't that what we want? Latitude in the rules which allows innovation but at the same time keeps all the different chassis/engine combinations about on par? Without race-by-race BoP?

I see the DWing, and I am looking at real racing. The only thing that would be better would be a couple other cars in the "DeltaWing" sub-class, with equally original designs---maybe an AWD Lites car and full ground effects, including skirts, or something.

Ditto!

It's not just you. For me, the huge, heavy, powerful cars VS light, nimble cars was always the most fun part of sportscar racing in the old days. On some tracks, you knew one or the other would dominate, but on other tracks, they gave great battles.

The DW is giving us a bit of sportscar racing as we used to know it years ago, before spec took over racing.

Thank you and congratulations to the Panoz DW folks!

[optica]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Thank you and congratulations to the Panoz DW folks!

Agreed....they certainly deserve an additional award for perseverance!

I think they were pretty sure of the potential but finding it has been more of a struggle than even the most optimistic of us thought it would be. Even Bowlby must be having a quiet smile now they seem to know where they are going with it.

Still not the most beautiful thing to grace a racing circuit but it seems to have accumulated a good many fans despite being the ugly duckling.