Can you tell the difference?!!

[GT-Driver]

Hi,
We all in motor sports there are two type of cars, Production based ones like WRC cars, stock / NASCAR, WTCC, Silhouettes (Like the Megane Trophy) and other GT and LeMan GTs.

However there is another class of cars they look like Single seaters with fenders; The Prototypes.

What is it that distinguishes the prototype from others? It is not the Canopy because we have the GrandAm prototypes and some LeMan protos come with a canopy too. So what is it?!

-For example; Is the Ford GT considered a GT or a prototype?

-Is the Zonda that once had the nurburgring record a prototype or a GT?

-What about Lambourghini? Is this a GT?!

-Now catch this; is the Ferrari FXX a prototype or a GT?!!

At some cars it is obvious but with others it is just so confusing, that is why I Love ASTON MARTIN, they are purly GT, Font engine rear drive, loooooog classic hood short cabin and fast and sexy.

Can any one define what the other cars are? It is little confusing.

Cheers

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by GT-Driver

Hi,
We all in motor sports there are two type of cars, Production based ones like WRC cars, stock / NASCAR, WTCC, Silhouettes (Like the Megane Trophy) and other GT and LeMan GTs.

However there is another class of cars they look like Single seaters with fenders; The Prototypes.

What is it that distinguishes the prototype from others? It is not the Canopy because we have the GrandAm prototypes and some LeMan protos come with a canopy too. So what is it?!

The prototype are cars built from a racing manufacted chassis and have different specs according to the competition, so we have
daytona prototype
LMP1
LMP2
and as sub-category of prototypes we have the "silouhette cars" that are prototypes with body shape that looks (even not so much) like road cars
GT500
DTM
nascar etc....

The GT cars are racing cars built from the same road car chassis, heavily of lesse heavily racing modified according to the competition rules, so we have
GT1
GT2 / GTE
GT3
GT4

-For example; Is the Ford GT considered a GT or a prototype?
The 3 kind of racing ford GT; GT1 by Matech, GT2 by Doran and GT3 by Matech are all GT cars because built using stock ford GT chassis even if the cars don't use ford engines.
In 2006 the DHG team ran a ford GT in GT300 using a f1 cosworth engine if i remember well but i don't know if was a prototype or a street ford GT modified.

-Is the Zonda that once had the nurburgring record a prototype or a GT?
if you mean Zonda R, is a very limited built car, is a modified zonda F with racing attitude... is a sort of "road car prototype".... is the same relationship between ferrari enzo - ferrari fxx.
A zonda GT1 privately modified ran at le mans in 2001 if i remember well with pour results; some year later a developed GT1 zonda has taken part to FIA GT test but the project was dropped.

-What about Lambourghini? Is this a GT?!
Reiter Engineering builds racing versions of Murcielago and Gallardo, GT of course. Japanese team JLOC modifies the reiter cars when run in japanese competitions

-Now catch this; is the Ferrari FXX a prototype or a GT?!!
is a "road prototype" read above about zonda R, basicly is the same matter.

At some cars it is obvious but with others it is just so confusing, that is why I Love ASTON MARTIN, they are purly GT, Font engine rear drive, loooooog classic hood short cabin and fast and sexy.

Can any one define what the other cars are? It is little confusing.


Cheers

read the bold sentences

[MitchZ06]

Pretty much what Alexkiller said.

[Félix]

A manufacturer with a prestigious name will sometimes be able to launch a race car for the road and sell enough to customers/get it homologated for GT racing because of the badge on it. Now as to whether it's a GT or a prototype, there's always a gray zone that keeps moving as time makes advanced technology more common. Examples:

-the Dauer 962 raced in a road car class because Porsche was behind it. It was a lightly modified Group C prototype car, but when compared to the GT1s that followed (911 GT1, CLK-GTR, GT-One, Saleen, Maserati MC12) it was not that high-tech

-the Maserati MC12 was an extreme Enzo built around a carbon tub and it had little to envy to previous all-out GT1s and Group Cs. It was not supposed to be legal for GT racing but the Maserati name meant it got to play with more conventional GT1s

-the Pagani Zonda R is not even road-legal, it's not legal in GT racing and it has nothing to envy to previous all-out GT1s and Group Cs. Also, just like the Maserati, its body has overhangs and general dimensions that you don't see on proper road cars because they're in no way practical for the road but rather meant to generate downforce

-and nowadays you have the 458 Italia and the MP4-12C that have equal tech (and pace) to the late 1990s GT1s and are real road cars at the same time. They can outpace a McLaren F1 - the car that was so fast in GT racing that everyone else had to show up with prototypes to stand a chance

GT or a prototype: there's always a gray zone that keeps moving as time makes advanced technology more common. In 15 years time we might see a road Audi R18...

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Félix

A manufacturer with a prestigious name will sometimes be able to launch a race car for the road and sell enough to customers/get it homologated for GT racing because of the badge on it. Now as to whether it's a GT or a prototype, there's always a gray zone that keeps moving as time makes advanced technology more common. Examples:

i agree partialy, only in 1996-1998 there was a MASSIVE gray zone, in those years, prototypes like CLK-LM, 911 GT1 and GT1 evo, Toyota GTone were called GT1 only because of weak (and highly influenced by manufacters) regulamentation, that let them use as GT each car they wished if just there was a road car homologation... the funny fact is that were built 3 GT-one road cars but never freely sold.

Also the mclaren f1 gtr long tail can be considered a "gray zoned GT-proto" because of changings and limited road car producted for homologation.

-the Dauer 962 raced in a road car class because Porsche was behind it. It was a lightly modified Group C prototype car, but when compared to the GT1s that followed (911 GT1, CLK-GTR, GT-One, Saleen, Maserati MC12) it was not that high-tech

-the Maserati MC12 was an extreme Enzo built around a carbon tub and it had little to envy to previous all-out GT1s and Group Cs. It was not supposed to be legal for GT racing but the Maserati name meant it got to play with more conventional GT1s

road mc12 is not an extreme enzo, the car share the same ferrari enzo chassis and engine but is slower and heavier, it was choiced the maserati brand to give it international promotion (similiar lexus-toyota in super GT). Then were built 50 mc12 road cars (and some special edition) to let the car have the homologation for Fia GT, at the end was the same "unfair" strategy that toyota and mercedes used in 1998....

-the Pagani Zonda R is not even road-legal, it's not legal in GT racing and it has nothing to envy to previous all-out GT1s and Group Cs. Also, just like the Maserati, its body has overhangs and general dimensions that you don't see on proper road cars because they're in no way practical for the road but rather meant to generate downforce

-and nowadays you have the 458 Italia and the MP4-12C that have equal tech (and pace) to the late 1990s GT1s and are real road cars at the same time. They can outpace a McLaren F1 - the car that was so fast in GT racing that everyone else had to show up with prototypes to stand a chance

sorry but not, f458 has always been faster than mp4-12c in almost all tracks where the 2 cars have been tested (talking about road cars) only in future we will see if mp4-12c gt3 will be good like the f458 gt3
....only on top gear the mp4-12c has been faster...

GT or a prototype: there's always a gray zone that keeps moving as time makes advanced technology more common. In 15 years time we might see a road Audi R18...

more than see an audi r18 on the street, the tech behind the car will be usefull also for the road cars; example the audi used the R8 (the prototype) also to develope the FSI tech, technology that is used in audi/lamborghini road cars.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Félix

-and nowadays you have the 458 Italia and the MP4-12C that have equal tech (and pace) to the late 1990s GT1s and are real road cars at the same time. They can outpace a McLaren F1 - the car that was so fast in GT racing that everyone else had to show up with prototypes to stand a chance

Sure they could probably outpace a Mclaren F1 road car but I really don't think the current Ferraris and Mclarens in any iteration be it GTE, GT3 or road going trim are anywhere near close to even see the tailights of the late 90s GT1 cars.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

if you mean Zonda R, is a very limited built car, is a modified zonda F with racing attitude... is a sort of "road car prototype".... is the same relationship between ferrari enzo - ferrari fxx.

As far as I know the Zonda R has nothing in common with any road-going Pagani, it's entirely purpose built and uses a V12 straight out of a GT1 CLK-GTR, IIRC it was almost 10 seconds faster around the Nurburgring than the 599XX which supposedly outpaces the FXX.
It would also probably obliterate everything if it was ever allowed to run with current GT1 cars.

[JHamilton]

I agree with the above comments rerotos, but just want to point out that a stock car (of any level) is in no way production based. They don't have a single production part. I wouldn't even call it a silhouette.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

Sure they could probably outpace a Mclaren F1 road car but I really don't think the current Ferraris and Mclarens in any iteration be it GTE, GT3 or road going trim are anywhere near close to even see the tailights of the late 90s GT1 cars.

MP4-12C, F1, 458, MC12 and Saleen S7R : Give them the same power level, the same race preparation and equal tires and I think you have a very tight race. Today's GT cars are either running with ridiculously small restrictors (GTE) and/or without the weight reductions that would make them comparable to other real GT racers (GT3/GT1).

[GT-Driver]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

read the bold sentences

That is one hell of a good scientific answer. I completely overlooked that there are cars built for racing from the scratch "protos" and production cars race prepped "Touring, saloons and GT's"

A new way of looking at cars in motorsports.

Seriously, I'm impressed. Thanks

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Félix

MP4-12C, F1, 458, MC12 and Saleen S7R : Give them the same power level, the same race preparation and equal tires and I think you have a very tight race. Today's GT cars are either running with ridiculously small restrictors (GTE) and/or without the weight reductions that would make them comparable to other real GT racers (GT3/GT1).

The MC12 is at heart a Ferrari FXX which is a heck of a lot more capable than a ferrari 458. i dont think The 458 and the MP4-12c belong in that list.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

The MC12 is at heart a Ferrari FXX which is a heck of a lot more capable than a ferrari 458. i dont think The 458 and the MP4-12c belong in that list.

We're moving away from the point, but a 458 is faster around a track than an Enzo. Modern cars are so well developed aerodynamically and mechanically; the only thing that's making them slightly slower than early GT1s is engine power restrictions.

Of course an old prototype in GT clothing with modern development would murder a road GT, but I'm pretty sure the racing 458s and everything that races with them nowadays are faster than the 95-96 McLaren F1 GTRs.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Félix

I'm pretty sure the racing 458s and everything that races with them nowadays are faster than the 95-96 McLaren F1 GTRs.

But just don't look (or definitely sound) so purdy......

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Félix

We're moving away from the point, but a 458 is faster around a track than an Enzo. Modern cars are so well developed aerodynamically and mechanically; the only thing that's making them slightly slower than early GT1s is engine power restrictions.

Of course an old prototype in GT clothing with modern development would murder a road GT, but I'm pretty sure the racing 458s and everything that races with them nowadays are faster than the 95-96 McLaren F1 GTRs.

if you see the qualifying timelaps of silverstone and some other track you'll notiche that clk gtr, mclaren f1 gtr and porsche 911 GT1 were faster than old specs GT1 (i mean GT1 cars before the downgrade of 2010) so i dubt that actual gte cars are faster than less aero efficent but lighter and powerfull mid'90 "almost prototype" GT1 class

[Félix]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

if you see the qualifying timelaps of silverstone and some other track you'll notiche that clk gtr, mclaren f1 gtr and porsche 911 GT1 were faster than old specs GT1 (i mean GT1 cars before the downgrade of 2010) so i dubt that actual gte cars are faster than less aero efficent but lighter and powerfull mid'90 "almost prototype" GT1 class

Here are the comparable numbers I could find (fastest race laps):

Nogaro 1996: 1:29.098 - McLaren F1 GTR
Nogaro 2011 (FFSA GT3): 1:28.410 - Ferrari 458 GT3
-
Jarama 1996: 1:33.570 - McLaren F1 GTR
Jarama 2011: 1:34.158 - BMW Z4 GT3
-
Zhuhai 1996: 1:32.680 - Porsche 911 GT1
Zhuhai 2010: 1:35.529 - Ferrari 430 GTC
-
Sebring 1997: 1:59.290 - McLaren F1 GTR
Sebring 2011: 2:01.526 - BMW M3 E92 GT
-
Laguna Seca 1997: 1:19.713 - Porsche 911 GT1
Laguna Seca 2010: 1:23.457 - Ferrari 430 GTC


Yes the old GT1s got faster than modern GTs during the 1996 season (a little after the mid-1990s). But modern GT cars based on real mass-produced road cars are getting very close with a lot less power and more weight. To me that makes them better cars... until you start thinking about how much time the old GT-Prototypes would gain on 2011 rubber if they were run by a team benefiting from 2011 knowledge about set-up and aero. In my mind, I can clearly see a 458 GTE staying with an F1 GTR if they were to meet on a track.

[alexkiller8]

fastest silverstone pole FIA GT 1998 1.39.703
fastest silverstone pole FIA GT 2009 1.42.2xx
*same layout

fastest spa pole FIA GT 1997 2.08.984
fastest spa pole FIA GT 2007 2.14.5x
*same layout bus chicane

a direct and correct comparison can be done with these example, both were GT1 class, same track layout and same weather condition with ever best laps in that track during the years.
The difference is abyssal, an actul 458 GT3/GTC can only see the mclaren f1 gtr/mercedes CLK GTR/porsche 911 GT1 vanish to the horizon

[Stefvh]

Spa chicane has changed a lot between 1997-2007.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Stefvh

Spa chicane has changed a lot between 1997-2007.

yes, you're right the bus chicane had some little changings during the year... so we can give a range of about -1 / +1 seconds to better compare, but the difference is still too big between the two GT1 era.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Félix

We're moving away from the point, but a 458 is faster around a track than an Enzo. Modern cars are so well developed aerodynamically and mechanically; the only thing that's making them slightly slower than early GT1s is engine power restrictions.

Of course an old prototype in GT clothing with modern development would murder a road GT, but I'm pretty sure the racing 458s and everything that races with them nowadays are faster than the 95-96 McLaren F1 GTRs.

The only thing that made the GT1 cars as slow as they were were engine and tire restrictions.

You cannot compare a car from ten years ago to a car today.
Unless you have a time machine and can pull a car from ten years ago straight off of a paddock, anyone prepping it today would encompass changes made in engine and tire improvements, or simple chassis tweaking making the ten year old car faster than it was ten years ago.

If a track is repaved or even part of it, a car unchanged will be quicker after the repaving than it was before.