Careers that declined or could have had more titles?

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by adam46

I know he never made it to race in F1 but James Courtney.

I believe he injured himself testing a Jaguar F1, I may be wrong.

This is from wikipedia.

While testing for the Jaguar Racing Formula One team in Monza in 2002, the rear suspension failed on Courtney's car, sending him into the barrier at 306 km/h. The car hit with such force that it bounced back from the wall at 70 km/h, causing Courtney to suffer an impact estimated at 67G. When he regained consciousness, he found Michael Schumacher shouting at him, trying to translate for the Italian track marshals who could not speak English. Courtney "freaked out" when he found that he could not move the right side of his body and was bleeding from his eyes. He explained that "it took me a year to recover. I couldn't walk without getting a migraine. Anything would set it off. Noise, light, anything."

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...Coulthard...were B grade drivers, in that they would never be WDC's. On the right day they could work themselves up to win a GP, but I don't think the consistency was ever there. Good drivers no doubt, but I could never see any of them being WDC.

This is an obvious one I have debated before. DC used to be my fav driver so easy to be a little one eyed

I would love to sit Ron Dennis down and quizz him. Was it the Mika injury in Adelaide and his pace that endeared him to the team. Was Mika truly that much better a driver? To me it seems DC arrived and was consistantly faster then Mika. Mika had some bad luck stopping him winning his first GP, but it was DC that got the teams first win with them as a pairing. And if not for team orders DC woudl have got the teams first 3 wins with them as a pairing.

When McLaren seemed to throw their emotion/efforts behind Mika it seemed DC was a tourist in 98 and 99. Seemed strange as there was nothing in their results from the first two seasons to suggest that Mika was going to be so dominant on talent alone. Mika had driven for the team since 94 and tested for years more so there was no reason why DC should have jumped into the team and been on par/quicker. He had 3 to 4 more DNFs in their first season together at Mac and looked good when the car was running.

Yeh, so DC obviously wasnt the complete package, able to muster political and team support to help him shine. But I do feel on talent alone he could have had one of Mikas titles.

I suppose the way I look at it is that Mika's titles were very much a team/driver WDC in that he did seem to have management support which seemed to be to DC's detriment; due to DC and perhaps lack of mental toughness/maturity.

Or maybe I was just a fanboy and my mistrust of Dennis is misplaced. But the likes of Montoya, Alonso and Heikki have all struggled within the dynamic of the team who seemed to despite their claim and attempts otherwise...seemed to ostracise one of their drivers

[Razzzor]

Yeah I'd be very interested in learning why DC and MH were so even in 96/97, then once the McLaren became dominant in 98/99/00 it was Mika that shone.

It could be many things I guess... the car? But I just assumed maybe Mika's the kind of guy that doesn't race as hard mid pack, but when he's got a car that can win, he drives it 10/10ths. And then by 2001 when he realised he can't win anymore against Ferrari, he lost interest again and DC began beating him again, before he retired to an average DTM campaign.

There's plenty of drivers that are only great when they're at the front, unlike guys like Alonso or Schumacher that give 100% no matter where they are in the field.

[Bononi]

Carlo Abate
George Abecassis
Kenny Acheson
Andrea de Adamich
Philippe Adams
Walt Ader
Kurt Adolff
Fred Agabashian
Kurt Ahrens, Jr.
Christijan Albers
Giovanna Amati
George Amick
Red Amick
Marco Apicella
Mário de Araújo Cabral
Frank Armi
Chuck Arnold
Peter Ashdown
Ian Ashley
Gerry Ashmore
Bill Aston
Richard Attwood
Manny Ayulo
Giancarlo Baghetti
Julian Bailey
Mauro Baldi
Bobby Ball
Marcel Balsa
Lorenzo Bandini
Henry Banks
Fabrizio Barbazza
John Barber
Skip Barber
Paolo Barilla
Michael Bartels
Edgar Barth
Giorgio Bassi
Erwin Bauer
Zsolt Baumgartner
Élie Bayol
Don Beauman
Karl–Günther Bechem
Jean Behra
Derek Bell

[chunterer]

Bon, surely you've just picked out the first few names alphabetically from an a-z of drivers! :-P

You can't seriously put bumgartner forward?!!

Bobby ball would be a good candidate for this thread title, but in a comedian forum. Lol!

[strider]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

This is from wikipedia.

While testing for the Jaguar Racing Formula One team in Monza in 2002, the rear suspension failed on Courtney's car, sending him into the barrier at 306 km/h. The car hit with such force that it bounced back from the wall at 70 km/h, causing Courtney to suffer an impact estimated at 67G. When he regained consciousness, he found Michael Schumacher shouting at him, trying to translate for the Italian track marshals who could not speak English. Courtney "freaked out" when he found that he could not move the right side of his body and was bleeding from his eyes. He explained that "it took me a year to recover. I couldn't walk without getting a migraine. Anything would set it off. Noise, light, anything."

Very interesting to have that quote.

The sad thing is that at the time James was headed towards winning the British F3 title that year, albeit with strong opposition from Robbie Kerr, but he came back to racing straightaway, although obviously in no condition to do so, and was noticeably slower than before and so lost the title to Kerr.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

This is an obvious one I have debated before. DC used to be my fav driver so easy to be a little one eyed

I would love to sit Ron Dennis down and quizz him. Was it the Mika injury in Adelaide and his pace that endeared him to the team. Was Mika truly that much better a driver? To me it seems DC arrived and was consistantly faster then Mika. Mika had some bad luck stopping him winning his first GP, but it was DC that got the teams first win with them as a pairing. And if not for team orders DC woudl have got the teams first 3 wins with them as a pairing.

When McLaren seemed to throw their emotion/efforts behind Mika it seemed DC was a tourist in 98 and 99. Seemed strange as there was nothing in their results from the first two seasons to suggest that Mika was going to be so dominant on talent alone. Mika had driven for the team since 94 and tested for years more so there was no reason why DC should have jumped into the team and been on par/quicker. He had 3 to 4 more DNFs in their first season together at Mac and looked good when the car was running.

Yeh, so DC obviously wasnt the complete package, able to muster political and team support to help him shine. But I do feel on talent alone he could have had one of Mikas titles.

I suppose the way I look at it is that Mika's titles were very much a team/driver WDC in that he did seem to have management support which seemed to be to DC's detriment; due to DC and perhaps lack of mental toughness/maturity.

Or maybe I was just a fanboy and my mistrust of Dennis is misplaced. But the likes of Montoya, Alonso and Heikki have all struggled within the dynamic of the team who seemed to despite their claim and attempts otherwise...seemed to ostracise one of their drivers

In my view, McLaren could see Mika had that extra edge of speed to be WDC and DC just didn't have it. I mean every year of DC's career after 1995 to his retirement, there was always the yearly winter story in F1 Racing and Autosport, about how DC was going to change and rise above his average/mediocre record for the previous year. He just never had consistency and was always going to be a supporting character.

Still he had a career most of us would be pleased to have had, so good on him, it's nothing to sneeze at.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yeah I'd be very interested in learning why DC and MH were so even in 96/97, then once the McLaren became dominant in 98/99/00 it was Mika that shone.

It could be many things I guess... the car? But I just assumed maybe Mika's the kind of guy that doesn't race as hard mid pack, but when he's got a car that can win, he drives it 10/10ths. And then by 2001 when he realised he can't win anymore against Ferrari, he lost interest again and DC began beating him again, before he retired to an average DTM campaign.

I think I read an interview with Mika that was done recently and he said the campaigns of 1998 and 1999 just drained the life out of him. With all the travel and PR as well, it was a lot of pressure to deal with.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by adam46

I personally think that Felipe Massa has never beeen as quick since Hungary '09 TBH.

I'd agree with that. That accident at Hungary took alot more out of him than we were led to believe.

[funformula]

I would add Tommy Byrne to the list.
In terms of raw talent, it seems he was one of the best. He wiped the floor in F3 in the early 80´s. Interesting to see what he could have achieved in a competetive F1 car.
Maybe he wasn´t the type of guy to resist all the "deflections" beside the race track and concentrate on the main target. Maybe that was the reason for a certain team manager not to sign him and maybe he was right. We´ll never know.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by chunterer

re Herbert. Had it not been for his terrible 3000 accident, most team owners were pretty much in agreement that he was a special talent as his Benetton tests confirmed in 1987/88.

The guy did amzingly well to be competitive for as long, and win those 3 races after such a determined recovery.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we would have been talking about a mutliple WDC in the 1990's.

Lists like this are based on 'what ifs.' Obviously Herbert's accident derailed him for a good long while as he was at diminished physical capacity for a few years. The LeMans drive re-proved he was on the road to recovering, but I believe he had to be lifted out of the car at the end too.

The other challenge with others mentioned, Stewart, Mika: the stress of the life was getting to them-in ways the life of a Grand Prix driver, especially in these times is a very unsettled almost constantly traveling life. Even going back, Stewart, Andretti, so many others, were doing other forms of racing on their off weekends, along with promotions and such.

[strider]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think I read an interview with Mika that was done recently and he said the campaigns of 1998 and 1999 just drained the life out of him. With all the travel and PR as well, it was a lot of pressure to deal with.

He was pretty quick in 2000 as well and the title was decided at Suzuka where he and Schumi had a great battle. I was always a fan and it seemed that day the weather conditions played a part. Schumi won, but but Mike had led a good part of the race and I think they both felt it was a really fierce battle. Probably what caused Schumi to say that Mika was his toughest opponent. That was also the year when Mika did the the on-the-limit overtaking move at Spa to win there.

2001 was the year when Mika faded away. He still won a couple of races, but DC was runner-up in the championship and Mika only 5th. mountainstar has explained the reason.

[ensign14]

I've never understood the amount of PR McLaren puts on its drivers. Must be counter-productive.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by adam46

I personally think that Felipe Massa has never beeen as quick since Hungary '09 TBH.

anyone that follows f1 will agree with you!

tbh we could list almost every memorable driver (for all the right reasons) down on this thread, the dynamic makeup/nature of an f1 race can propel any team up there at any time and every driver is trying to be 1st anyway! ive got a list of dozens of drivers that should have made it up there, you pick out all the people who died racing and i guarantee all the drivers would be top of the list for a start. good thread though but we'd be here for ages!

[bella]

Originally Posted by ensign14

I've never understood the amount of PR McLaren puts on its drivers. Must be counter-productive.

keeps them out of trouble as much as anything, i suspect

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by ensign14

I've never understood the amount of PR McLaren puts on its drivers. Must be counter-productive.

I remember back in Mika's WDC days, it seemed like they were busy all winter with PR stuff. All of that travel and being in the public eye would have an effect on anyone.

[strider]

It's still the same, because during last season whenever the subject of re-signing came up both Button and Hamilton said they were looking for a substantial reduction in the amount of PR work.

[jc1965]

According to urban myth Frank Williams was at Brands Hatch the day of Herberts accident with a contract. Potentially JH could have driven for Williams from 89 onwards throughtout the Williams Renault years, taking it to the extreme JH could have been WDC 91 92 93 94 95 96, All being in the right place, right team at the right time. Unfortunately he had that terrible accident.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by jc1965

According to urban myth Frank Williams was at Brands Hatch the day of Herberts accident with a contract. Potentially JH could have driven for Williams from 89 onwards throughtout the Williams Renault years, taking it to the extreme JH could have been WDC 91 92 93 94 95 96, All being in the right place, right team at the right time. Unfortunately he had that terrible accident.

89 and 90 were not exactly the best years for Williams, so who knows, he may have been overwhelmed and not done well, especially as Williams started to move towards developing active suspension to it's heights of success. It may have been too much too soon and then he may have faded quickly.

Sometimes setbacks and roadblocks have a way of harnessing our desire, intellect and determination and focusing it in a positive way moving forward better than before. Many sports stars that come up through the ranks and everyone tells them how much of a star they are and contracts are waving all over and they've had so much success, often times implode when they are signed to the pinnacle of the sport and then have to deal with all the pressures and demands that entails.

So while he didn't want to have that accident, it certainly brought out a dogged determination in him to succeed.

[Louis Agilais]

"Careers that declined or could have had more titles?"

Current careers included? Hamilton's...?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

89 and 90 were not exactly the best years for Williams, so who knows, he may have been overwhelmed and not done well, especially as Williams started to move towards developing active suspension to it's heights of success. It may have been too much too soon and then he may have faded quickly.

Williams performed below their actual potential in those 2 years, they could've won more races but for some reliability issues and some pretty lacklustre driving in several cases.

There's little doubt that a pumped up hotshot would've seen the FW12c/13 as cars capable of delivering good results.

Herbert, pre Brands was on the crest of a wave and unpreterbable and that would have carried on into F1 whether it was Williams or Benetton.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

"Careers that declined or could have had more titles?"

Current careers included? Hamilton's...?

Storm Front approaching ...

[beau1]

I think its a valid point about Hamilton, he doesn't look like he could win another championship any time soon even if McLaren was the dominant car.

[Razzzor]

Here's the Herbert crash in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlSo9MWZmq8

It's hard to say if that crash effected his driving ability at all. Only he Herbert would know. Has he ever said he wasn't able to drive as fast since then?

There's every chance it didn't effect him at all and he never was WDC material. He wasn't exactly blowing anyone away in F3000 in 88. He never struck me as anyone beyond average, but I wasn't watching racing in the 80s when he was being touted as the next big thing. Who did he beat in the British F3 in 87?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by beau1

I think its a valid point about Hamilton, he doesn't look like he could win another championship any time soon even if McLaren was the dominant car.

Cough...