Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Re; Open Source---That had always been part of the plan; DWing LLc reserved the right to approve or reject any suggested design changes, and then would publish those as well. (From the Kirby article: "Having the complete design effectively on a plate means you can also modify the design and submit your design for approval. " (Emphasis added.))

That was (I beleive) a large part of the reason it was originally rejected by IndyCar--IndyCar would have lost all control over the design, and teams wouldn't bother trying to improve it legally) because they would have to share all their development with their rivals.

So the league would have to give up control over the car design (thus losing the ability to make the kinds of downforce changed it made at the last two oval races, which made those races so much better and safer) and the teams would have no reason to try to improve the car legally, which would have led to more cheating and less progress.

The question remains, even if it is "Open Source," who owns the rights to "DeltaWing LLC-Approved" changes to the design, or if that part of the system is even practical now.

Either way, the ideas are out there. Any engineers who want to be really creative in designing a car which might not be able to race anywhere is free to make his or her own.

(Oh, and TY for the link.)

Open source doesn't seem very practical for something of this nature. Motorsport is (and, has been for quite a while) a heavily commercialised industry, and one that hasn't been overly exposed to the concept of free/shared knowledge, amongst an indeterminate volume of parties.

Granted, there's a precedent for large commercial operations contributing significantly to Linux, and multiple other open source (software dev) projects; the vast majority of which are software/hardware vendors that acknowledge potential gain (e.g. device/platform compatibility for their given product).

As a concept, I like it (the part concerning OS ideology, anyway), and wish them all the best. Convincing commercial automotive/motorsport organisations there's mutual benefit in an undertaking that won't directly generate revenue seems a difficult sale. It might not be impossible but, it seems problematic.

[canam]

Good platform for a privateer looking to be creative.

With engineering students, could be the basis for a design contest.

Winner get the car built.

A bit like GT Academy which is a great idea.

[optica]

Now the dust is settling on the DeltaWing's visit to Le Mans I can't stop thinking about what the true potential of this car is. Current LMP2 cars have inherited decades of development from previous prototype formulae and between them have completed many thousands, if not millions of miles during testing and intense racing over the years. When Michelin admit they were into roads of development they had never travelled before and most components of the DeltaWing had to be developed from a blank sheet of paper it makes you realize what an amazing achievement getting it to Le Mans in the first place was let alone being able to run at the speed they did with some proveable reliability. All this with one car and just few months of testing. The drivers were having to adapt to something completely new and admit to still being on a learning curve when it all came to a premature end. Ongoing tyre development alone would surely have added considerable improvements to its performance and no doubt many other parameters would have received major improvements. If it had comparable development to current LMP2 cars and its drivers had accumulated a similar amount of experience with driving it you can't help but wonder....I hope we we will get the chance to see one day and this year's Le Mans will have been just the first step on the ladder.

[Simmi]

I'm assuming this was maybe brought up during the race but I actually found my love for the DW fading due to the vomit-inducing interviews with Darren Cox on RLM during the race.

The big story here is what happens next and how much PR Nissan really think they can squeeze out of it? How fussed are they about the ALMS?

[Articus]

I just read somehting on speed saying the car would basically without doubt be at Petit Le Mans because Don Panoz can do whatever he wants to the regs in ALMS.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I'm assuming this was maybe brought up during the race but I actually found my love for the DW fading due to the vomit-inducing interviews with Darren Cox on RLM during the race.

what did he say?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Articus

I just read somehting on speed saying the car would basically without doubt be at Petit Le Mans because Don Panoz can do whatever he wants to the regs in ALMS.

DeLorenzo doesn't quite seem to have his finger on the pulse of anything racing related lately. I would expect to see the Delta Wing at least at PLM, maybe other events. There's just been too much noise made by Panoz about it's future for it to go away now.

[ss_collins]

I think as I have said many times a 500kg class should be added - with just maximum width, height and displacement (as well as some safety stuff)

[optica]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I'm assuming this was maybe brought up during the race but I actually found my love for the DW fading due to the vomit-inducing interviews with Darren Cox on RLM during the race.

The big story here is what happens next and how much PR Nissan really think they can squeeze out of it? How fussed are they about the ALMS?

I agree that Nissan milked it for all it was worth to the point that it got a bit uncomfortable at times but they were paying the bills and with advancing years I am getting immune to the PR bull we get from all quarters these days. The engine is perhaps the least radical component of the DeltaWing and who's to say its future lies with Nissan. Now it has achieved a higher profile no doubt some other manufacturers might be quite keen to get their name associated with it if the opportunity arose.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I think as I have said many times a 500kg class should be added - with just maximum width, height and displacement (as well as some safety stuff)

I don't think displacement is even that important, as long as you make it a limited energy formula. Just by the nature of the formula, you wouldn't have 8l V8's in the category.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I think as I have said many times a 500kg class should be added - with just maximum width, height and displacement (as well as some safety stuff)

Yes, but no minimum weight. We have safety tests now and the cars carry ballast, so the original reason for minimum weight, keeping Colin Chapman from making cars out of tissue paper if he thought it would be faster, is gone. For the record, I'm a big Colin Chapman fan.

If the fuel allotment was set at the mileage the DW achieved, or a little lower, the cars couldn't compete for the overall win until teams came up with some more clever stuff to get more work out of that fuel allotment. Initially that would serve to control costs. When things evolved so it could compete for overall wins it would become a manufacturer playground and something would need to be done to keep costs under control, or just knock the fuel allotment back down.

It wouldn't be half bad to have basically a modern day gargista class doing all kinds of interesting things.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

The Toyota came up from miles behind ran under the Delta and then cut across its nose to knock it off. It was just too slow into and through the corners mainly due to the narrow front track and silly little front wheels.

Are you seriously implying that it's design was the cause of it going out. Oh dear, you risk losing credibility here, just because you don't like it! The accident was caused by the traffic jam and poor judgement by another.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Are you seriously implying that it's design was the cause of it going out. Oh dear, you risk losing credibility here, just because you don't like it! The accident was caused by the traffic jam and poor judgement by another.

If you are markedly slower into and through the corners you subject yourself to more passing in the corners as faster cars try to get past.
The more passing manoeuvres you are part of the more likely that sooner or later someone will trip over you.

As Simmi said above "the vommit inducing spin" that this whole project has benefitted from is just beyond belief, and limits the ability of people seeking to introduce truly advanced and cutting edge technology into the sport. The concept needs to be put in a class ss_collins suggested a 500 kg class, which would at least be a start and subject the Delta concept to competition from cars designed to the same rules, I would suggest it would perform very poorly and be found out very quickly.

The concept of light and fuel efficient is good, the Delta design is just nonsense!

I actually love new technology, but I hate spin and bulldust!

[canam]

Originally Posted by wnut

If you are markedly slower into and through the corners you subject yourself to more passing in the corners as faster cars try to get past.
The more passing manoeuvres you are part of the more likely that sooner or later someone will trip over you.

As Simmi said above "the vommit inducing spin" that this whole project has benefitted from is just beyond belief, and limits the ability of people seeking to introduce truly advanced and cutting edge technology into the sport. The concept needs to be put in a class ss_collins suggested a 500 kg class, which would at least be a start and subject the Delta concept to competition from cars designed to the same rules, I would suggest it would perform very poorly and be found out very quickly.

the concept of light and fuel efficient is good, the Delta design is just nonsense!

I actually love new technology, but I hate spin and bulldust!

Is that why you present the same "vomit inducing spin" in your own argument. You just don't like it. You present fiction as fact.

The problem was not the DW. It was the idiot driving the Toyota and the attitude that works teams have in multi class racing.

DW was restricted. Simple. By the ACO. It ran in the lower realms of LMP2 pace. Because it was slower than a higher horsepower LMP1 car with greater downforce in the Porsche curves give everyone the right to run it off the track? Guess so, in your world.

It may have many issues, but the ones you have mentioned are pure fiction and reside only in you head--not in reality.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wnut

If you are markedly slower into and through the corners you subject yourself to more passing in the corners as faster cars try to get past.
The more passing manoeuvres you are part of the more likely that sooner or later someone will trip over you.

As Simmi said above "the vommit inducing spin" that this whole project has benefitted from is just beyond belief, and limits the ability of people seeking to introduce truly advanced and cutting edge technology into the sport. The concept needs to be put in a class ss_collins suggested a 500 kg class, which would at least be a start and subject the Delta concept to competition from cars designed to the same rules, I would suggest it would perform very poorly and be found out very quickly.

The concept of light and fuel efficient is good, the Delta design is just nonsense!

I actually love new technology, but I hate spin and bulldust!

In post 796, Holt predicted a lap time of 3:45 (buy that man a beer!, in fact a whole pitcher! ), in post 800 you told us 4:00 and told us that would be followed by a bunch of excuses followed by its withdrawal. Turned out it qualified at 3:42.612 and during the race they were dealing with various issues that kept them above but within one second of 3:45. This done with less power than any other car in the race. So far as we know, it wasn't even running at the full 300 HP due to gearbox issues.

Presumably there are other designs that could beat it with the same fuel economy. Most of us who are DW fans aren't necessarily fans of the design itself, but what it represents. I personally think it is ugly, but to me it represents a return to what auto racing was before the rules went in an over-restrictive/spec direction. It was created to ask the question 'Why are the rules the way they are?" in a very easy to grasp way, by demonstrating an alternative. It is a huge success in that way. It has a lot less development time than the other cars and they improved five seconds between practice and the race. It's a design with huge potential for development, very early in the learning curve, and with another year to refine it, it looks to me like they could get it to 3:35.

It corners a lot faster than the GT's, so slow cornering isn't a fair criticism. It also appeared to be running hard rubber because they wanted to make a point about tire use. Given tires as soft as the P2's, there is no reason to believe it wouldn't be faster than all of them.

In short, they accomplished a huge amount in a short time on a limited budget, and the car can't be seen as anything but a huge success.

Hopefully it will get a chance to run again.

[Matt]

a good friend of mine was at post 61 all weekend, and from his vantage point he said the DW was just as fast through the chicane as any other P2 car.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I think as I have said many times a 500kg class should be added - with just maximum width, height and displacement (as well as some safety stuff)

Then let's go here and we'll see if the Delta has any relevance whatsoever!

[FstrthnU]

to be honest, I don't even care if the deltawing is relevant. I just find it cool and different. Its nice to not have "just another" prototype but to have something unique

[optica]

If the Deltawing was only about power to weight ratios then it wouldn't be proving anything new. After all superkarts have been embarrassing those with bigger pockets and egos for years now. It is about its unique and brilliantly innovative aerodynamics. Look at its top speed during qualifying and it was faster than ALL other LMP2s at 309.5kph. This is very impressive from a car with only 300bhp (or perhaps less) that can corner at the same speed as other prototypes. It looks the way it does because that is what is required to achieve this performance. Anyone who thinks this can be done with the aero and layout of a conventional LMP car is living in a dream world....Perhaps we should look at Ben Bowlby's credentials and then at our own. He is out there amazing us all....We are sitting on our backsides in front of computers trying to make out we know better....bit sad really.

[Maelochs]

It won't turn, I tell you!!!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Interesting read.

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1/

That's an excellent article.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by canam

Is that why you present the same "vomit inducing spin" in your own argument. You just don't like it. You present fiction as fact.

The problem was not the DW. It was the idiot driving the Toyota and the attitude that works teams have in multi class racing.

DW was restricted. Simple. By the ACO. It ran in the lower realms of LMP2 pace. Because it was slower than a higher horsepower LMP1 car with greater downforce in the Porsche curves give everyone the right to run it off the track? Guess so, in your world.

It may have many issues, but the ones you have mentioned are pure fiction and reside only in you head--not in reality.

Agreed, and with other comments above on how well the DW did. wnut seems to hate this design, and I'm not sure why. Almost all his arguments against it have proven false (see about page 50 - this is a long thread!), he seems to think he know better than the very experienced designers who made the car, and has shown he doesn't. And yet continues to claim the experiment was a failure. Which, to my eyes (and see the linked article above for another pov), it most certainly hasn't. I don't know if wnut is a race car designer, but his predictions for the DW's performance have turned out completely wrong, so I hope not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

The concept of light and fuel efficient is good, the Delta design is just nonsense!

Why is the design nonsense?

[Aysedasi]

It really is time for someone to retire 'hurt' from this thread..........

[Maelochs]

I like this thread. I like seeing normally very rational, logical, engineering-oriented people get emotional and be illogical. It reveals a lot about human nature, and also gives insight into human personality, i.e. what we hold to be "precious," or even "sacred."

Who would have believed three years ago if I said, "A car with a narrow front track will make many people on many forums completely irrational"? I wouldn't have believed it myself.

It's just a car, folks.

I'd say LMPC hurts racing more than the DWing ever will ... but a lot of people who used to hate PC now think the DWing comes straight from Satan.

Fact is it is just a funny-looking car that can keep up with a conventional P2 car. That's all it is. The sky is not going to fall. it's okay.