Careers that declined or could have had more titles?

[Crawford Fan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Modena may have been one of those drivers that had talent, but not the desire or drive. As I recall he quit his first F1 race because he was tired and subsequently conked out at different times in his career when he didn't feel like pushing. His best year was with Tyrrell in 1991. I don't think he ever had the stuff to be a race winner or WDC.

The Yamaha Jordan ended Mauricio Gugelmin's F1 career as well. Not a good engine.

Didn't Elio de Angelis simply give up once? I can't remember the details, but San Marino rings a bell.

[Sultan]

IMHO, the following are my obvious ones -

Jean Alesi - If only he went to Williams instead of Ferrari! Monster talent, but too emotional

Gilles Villeneuve - Like Alesi, perhaps too much heart & balls, not enough ruthlessness, a waste of a special life..

Sir Stirling Moss - Just one of those things

Sir Jackie Stewart - If he kept racing

Aytron Senna - when you see how close Hill got, it would've been his for sure! Sadly missed..

Juan Pablo Montoya - See Alesi & Vileneuve!

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Crawford Fan

Didn't Elio de Angelis simply give up once? I can't remember the details, but San Marino rings a bell.

If memory serves,he had correctly concluded that the Lotus 93 was a waste of everybody's time.A bit of spare time on a Sunday afternoon was more appealing than flogging round to the finish a long way from the leading pack.A bit later that season and in a different car,he was qualifying on pole.
He was one of the few team mates of Senna to occasionally out-qualify the great Brazilian.

[ensign14]

There was one race where de Angelis was genuinely ill, can't remember which though. Modena was just a wimp. With inane superstitions. They even named a team and a town after him and he still did nothing.

[kart_racer]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

In some ways Damon Hill was fortunate to get one title, considering he didn't race an F1 car 'til he was 31. I'd nominate Raikkonen as someone who perhaps got fewer titles than his talent merited. It could go the same way for Hamilton, but I hope not.

Agree with that entirely. 2005 was his season, such a shame the car failed so so many times on him.

Also 03 he run Schu close.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by kart_racer

Agree with that entirely. 2005 was his season, such a shame the car failed so so many times on him.

Also 03 he run Schu close.

As did JPM, who frankly would have won it if not for the round one spin losing him max points, the Austria engine failure, another moment in Montreal probably costing him another win and the Ferrari anti Michelin disgrace in the week leading upto Monza.

Both he and Kimi 'deserved to finish ahead of Schumacher based on their performances that year.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunterer

As did JPM, who frankly would have won it if not for the round one spin losing him max points, the Austria engine failure, another moment in Montreal probably costing him another win and the Ferrari anti Michelin disgrace in the week leading upto Monza.

Japan too, engine failure iirc.

[strider]

Don't tell Knowlesey , but I think JPM was a great loss to F1. Still, he seems happy doing NASCAR, so good luck to him.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by strider

Don't tell Knowlesey , but I think JPM was a great loss to F1. Still, he seems happy doing NASCAR, so good luck to him.

Exactly, think ultimately the whole F1 atmosphere was just a bit too uptight for JPM and he certainly seems to be very happy where he is.

Some great contributions through this thread - my two contributions (sorry if I'm repeating anyone) are:

Johnny Herbert - such a class act in the lower formulae, winning or right at the front consistently but of course the Brands shunt left him physically unable to drive an F1 car to it's limit for quite some time. I do wonder what a truly fit Johnny might have been able to achieve.

Jan Magnussen - he really looked like he had the goods all the way into F1 but once there seemed to simply fade away. Wonder just what he would have been able to achieve if someone had been able to unlock his speed?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Jan Magnussen - he really looked like he had the goods all the way into F1 but once there seemed to simply fade away. Wonder just what he would have been able to achieve if someone had been able to unlock his speed?

He had a reputation, which he admits to an extent, for being a bit of a goof off and not really applying himself and being committed to developing his skills as a driver. He was smoking, drinking and having a good ole time and he just didn't have what it took to be an F1 driver.

It's why he's taken his son and made sure his son doesn't make the same mistakes he did.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

He had a reputation, which he admits to an extent, for being a bit of a goof off and not really applying himself and being committed to developing his skills as a driver. He was smoking, drinking and having a good ole time and he just didn't have what it took to be an F1 driver.

It's why he's taken his son and made sure his son doesn't make the same mistakes he did.

Before the 1997 season, ITV did a preview show, Jan was in the audience. Stever Ryder (iirc) was interviewing Jackie Stewart, JYS mentioned something about Jan's smoking. SR asked Jan about JYS getting him to stop and Jan's answer was "well, he can try". It bought a few laughs from the audience, but that to me summed up Jan's attitude to his F1 career.

Lets hope he has more sucess with his son's career.

[strider]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

He had a reputation, which he admits to an extent, for being a bit of a goof off and not really applying himself and being committed to developing his skills as a driver. He was smoking, drinking and having a good ole time and he just didn't have what it took to be an F1 driver.

I'm not going to get into a debate about Jan except to say that he always smoked, even when he was winning more races than Ayrton Senna in British Formula 3. If you had to pick two teams where Jan's image definitely didn't fit, they would be McLaren and Stewart.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It's why he's taken his son and made sure his son doesn't make the same mistakes he did.

Kevin lives with his mother and doesn't have a lot to do with his Dad. He is part of the McLaren Young Driver Development Programme.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Jan Magnussen - he really looked like he had the goods all the way into F1 but once there seemed to simply fade away. Wonder just what he would have been able to achieve if someone had been able to unlock his speed?

Pretty sure I touted his name back in post #22 . He was definitely one to enjoy himself out of the cockpit. Even as far back as his FF1600 season with Foundation Racing he was drinking and smoking away from the race track IIRC.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Sultan

IMHO, the following are my obvious ones -

Jean Alesi - If only he went to Williams instead of Ferrari! Monster talent, but too emotional

Gilles Villeneuve - Like Alesi, perhaps too much heart & balls, not enough ruthlessness, a waste of a special life..

Sir Stirling Moss - Just one of those things

Sir Jackie Stewart - If he kept racing

Aytron Senna - when you see how close Hill got, it would've been his for sure! Sadly missed..

Juan Pablo Montoya - See Alesi & Vileneuve!

Jean Alesi - If only he went to Williams instead of Ferrari! Monster talent, but too emotional

cant add more to that. he was a good no.2 stayed a no.2 and definately became a never was which is a crying shame because he never really delivered apart from the first few years because he didnt go places like he should have deserved to.

Gilles Villeneuve - Like Alesi, perhaps too much heart & balls, not enough ruthlessness, a waste of a special life..

couldn't agree more, without viewing this as distasteful villeneuve as much as people like him he's viewed through RT glasses, he'd never have won a wdc as there was so much competition, favouritism around his time and definately wasn't in the right place at the right time, if people remember ferrari dropped into relative obscurity for a good 6/7 years just about after '83 as the machinery was uncompetitive before '83 and after they were simply overshadowed.

Sir Stirling Moss - Just one of those things

like all the guys on this list its all one of those things, its because he had the crash in his prime if he kept on racing he'd have been today's equivalent of david coulthard.

Sir Jackie Stewart - If he kept racing

8 years, why?! but he had loads of reasons and he is probably the smartest of the lot, he got out asap mostly for safety reasons he'd have stayed a tyrell man, he wouldnt have pulled them out of the position theyd have found themselves in shortly after retirement as ferrari would have got the better of him/them, he got out in his prime so of this list he is definately the most likeliest to have not won another title if they all kept racing.

Aytron Senna - when you see how close Hill got, it would've been his for sure! Sadly missed..

wow we know. he'd have most probably won a 100+ gp's before he retired

Juan Pablo Montoya - See Alesi & Vileneuve!

absolutely gutted when montoya left,

2 people to add to this list,

peterson without a doubt, forget andretti, RP 10 gp's could have easily been almost twice that if he wasnt the no 2 all the time.

niki lauda, maybe if he didnt get bored and stayed on at brabham then maybe '81-'83 even '82 might have been his.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Pretty sure I touted his name back in post #22 . He was definitely one to enjoy himself out of the cockpit. Even as far back as his FF1600 season with Foundation Racing he was drinking and smoking away from the race track IIRC.

his son hasnt dissapointed aswell, who will undoubtedly become formula 3 champion if he stays on next year. or so he says!

[MichaelH]

Giancarlo Fisichella. One of the smoothest, fastest and most precise drivers I've seen, beautiful technique and 1997 made him look like a world champion in waiting. All the hype was about Ralf Schumacher but Fisi quickly got the better of him and his drives on the 'proper racetracks' (Monaco, Canada, Spa, Hockenheim) were stunning, he should have won two or three Grands Prix that season which for a youngster was superb. Same in 1998 - he had the Canadian GP all wrapped up and then the turning point seemed to be when he managed not to win that one - his star gradually faded through some turgid years at Benetton, he finally took his first win in that freak wet race in Brazil for Jordan but by that point had been treading water for ages and was already in his thirties.

When he finally, deservedly got into a top, Championship-winning car in 2005/2006 he was well into his thirties and up against Alonso in what was very much Alonso's team, and he seemed defeated before he even turned a wheel. After his win in Australia 2005 I thought he'd cracked it, but no. He was such a disappointment.

Spa 09 proved he still had something special but he was just too flaky at crucial moments, wasn't he? Such talent, but IMO a slightly weird career with far too much treading water.

[SALEEN S7R]

Eddie Irvine

David Coulthard

Alex Zanardi

[adam46]

I know he never made it to race in F1 but James Courtney.

I believe he injured himself testing a Jaguar F1, I may be wrong.

[skycafe]

I saw watching the video earlier today of Johnny Herbert's lap in the restored Mazda 787B at LeMans, and it hit me he may qualify for this thread, and I don't think was mentioned previously. Had he not had his Brands F3000 accident, he would have gone to F1 earlier and I believe achieved much more then he did.

[adam46]

I personally think that Felipe Massa has never beeen as quick since Hungary '09 TBH.

[krt917]

Great thread, with some interesting debates! Just couldn't let this one go.

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

Sir Stirling Moss - Just one of those things

like all the guys on this list its all one of those things, its because he had the crash in his prime if he kept on racing he'd have been today's equivalent of david coulthard.

No way was Moss a DC. I like Coulthard and think he is probably a bit under-rated, but Moss was on another level. He was giving Fangio trouble in 1956-1957 and after Fangio retired, Moss was the benchmark of the era. He was denied in 1958 by a daft points scoring, in 1959 by poor reliability, and was the stand-out driver in 1961.

As for other suggestions. John Surtees? Don't think he's been mentioned yet. He was a tad lucky in 1964, but would probably have won it in 1966 had he not fallen out with certain elements of the Ferrari team...

[Razzzor]

James Courtney is a good driver, but he's been terrible in 2011. What the heck happened to him?

Some of these other more recent drivers, however, had their chances: Herbert, Irvine, Fisichella, Coulthard, and were consistently beaten by their team mates. So I don't think any of them were world champion material.

Zanardi was really fast on his day though. I never really understood why he couldn't cut it in F1. Maybe he just needed more time. He was more dominant than Montoya in the states in the same car. And Montoya is a driver that could have been champion if he had a fast enough car under him.

I'd love to have seen Seb Loeb in F1 instead of Rally. I think he probably would have been a multiple champion.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

James Courtney is a good driver, but he's been terrible in 2011. What the heck happened to him?

Some of these other more recent drivers, however, had their chances: Herbert, Irvine, Fisichella, Coulthard, and were consistently beaten by their team mates. So I don't think any of them were world champion material.

Zanardi was really fast on his day though. I never really understood why he couldn't cut it in F1. Maybe he just needed more time. He was more dominant than Montoya in the states in the same car. And Montoya is a driver that could have been champion if he had a fast enough car under him.

I'd love to have seen Seb Loeb in F1 instead of Rally. I think he probably would have been a multiple champion.

Zanardi I think just got caught up in what turned out to be the eventual slide of Williams F1 which took a brief blip upwards with BMW, but after 1997 other teams raised their game and Williams slipped a bit.

Herbert, Irvine, Coulthard, Fisichella were B grade drivers, in that they would never be WDC's. On the right day they could work themselves up to win a GP, but I don't think the consistency was ever there. Good drivers no doubt, but I could never see any of them being WDC.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

He was more dominant than Montoya in the states in the same car. And Montoya is a driver that could have been champion if he had a fast enough car under him.

I do believe that had Ganassi not swapped to the Toyota engine for 2000 then Montoya would have cantered to that title too. Iirc, he led over half the laps that season, yet only picked up 3 wins due to poor reliability from the Toyota engine.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I do believe that had Ganassi not swapped to the Toyota engine for 2000 then Montoya would have cantered to that title too. Iirc, he led over half the laps that season, yet only picked up 3 wins due to poor reliability from the Toyota engine.

Absolutely no doubt, mind you the fact that he was hobbled made the series a bit more interesting!

mountainstar, re Herbert. Had it not been for his terrible 3000 accident, most team owners were pretty much in agreement that he was a special talent as his Benetton tests confirmed in 1987/88.

The guy did amzingly well to be competitive for as long, and win those 3 races after such a determined recovery.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we would have been talking about a mutliple WDC in the 1990's.