Group A MG Metro Turbos - Where are they now?

[MG Rover Sport]

I have commented on more than one occasion in this thread that I have some 1984 correspondance from Roger Dowson detailing the different chassis and what they were used for - WELL I'VE FOUND IT!

I'm sure this really belongs in the chassis archive thread, but I guess the moderators have to duplicate any threads of relevance from time to time. However as it is still in context here, I will proceed!

I sent Roger a typed sheet detailing each entry since Rd 3 in 1983, with a blank space next to each, and asked Roger to complete the detail. This is therefore what he came back with...

MT 001
Pond - Nº 35 - 1983 BTCC Rds 4 to 7 inclusive.
M Brundle - Nº 37 - 1983 BTCC Rd 11.

MT 002
Watts - Nº 78 - 1983 BTCC Rds 3 to 7 inclusive.
Rebuilt to turbo specification.
Watts - Nº 36 - 1983 BTCC Rds 8 to 11 inclusive.

MT 003
Pond - Nº 35 - 1983 BTCC Rds 8 to 11 inclusive.
Pond / Watts - Nº 59 - 1983 ETC Rd 11 (Silverstone Tourist Trophy).
Watts / R Brundle - Nº 61 - 1984 ETCC Rd 3 (Donington 500).

MT 005
R Brundle - Nº 35 - 1984 BTCC Rds 1 to 6 inclusive.

MT 006
Watts - Nº 34 - 1984 BTCC Rds 1 to 6 inclusive.

Also detailed on the same sheet is the following...

MTR 002
Taft - Nº 43 - 1984 BTCC Rds 2 to 6 inclusive.

Which I am guessing means that it was possibly the ex-Watts 1983 chassis MT 002 but rebuilt for Paul Taft's privateer campaign, ie R for rebuilt? But I am guessing I know.

KA - Yes Paul's was an independently funded entry with his Klaxon / Neiman sponsors, but the car was indeed run by Roger Dowson Engineering.

At the bottom of the sheet it also states...

006 will be coming second ETC car at Silverstone.
007 will be competing in the German Championship.

Interestingly, there is also no mention of 004? Maybe 004 was the speculated 1984 spare Computervision chassis, which would back up posts made here stating 3 cars were built - 2 race & 1 spare? Guessing again though.

I cannot recall exactly what date I received this letter, but it must be post the 1984 BTCC withdrawal, but before the German entries of Armin Hahne or the 1984 Silverstone Tourist Trophy. That would make it sometime between 10 June and 5 August 1984 to be honest.

[chunterer]

Excellent stuff MGRS, looks like we have it cracked then? I shall transfer the info to the archive for you shortly.

Yes, I thought i'd already seen that Taft's was from the same origins - I think it was referred to as semi-works rather than privateer.

The 'MT' prefix as part of the chassis numbering sequence is also of interest. Murray Taylor's F3 workshop was on the same Silverstone industrial estate. He didn't build them on Dowson's behalf did he? Probably totally unrelated, just a thought...

OT. God I still get a bit miffed thinking back to the mid 80's. How would the series have developed has ARG not pulled out with the subsequent void discouraging other factory backed outfits from entering in 85/86/87? Could have been 2 further superb seasons following on from 1984 and not the rather diluted 'club plus' level of series we had until the Sierra and M3's livened it up again 4 years later.

I reckon BMW would have continued against Rover and maybe Volvo would have been tempted in to the fray. Dave Brodie might have got full works backing for his Starions and Rouse might have got a real deal Ford gig instead of Eggenberger! Then we could have seen a fantastic match up between The Metro's, Graham Goodes Nissan and the Longman Escort Turbo's which appeared later in 85.

How we were robbed!!

[MG Rover Sport]

Many thanks for the kind words 'chunterer' - I knew I had that letter somehwere, just couldn't find it!

I've never heard of Murray Taylor before I'm afraid. I'd just assumed that it stood for Metro Turbo, but that's another guess in all reality?

I will change my files to state 'semi-works' - in recollection, I think you're right on the terminology. Semi-works is far more an accurate description of Paul Taft's 1984 entry in my opinion.

I also agree what a shame it was that the series fizzled out fater mid-1984, following the Austin Rover withdrawal - the series would have been so much stronger in the late 1980s as you quite rightly stated.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Many thanks for the kind words 'chunterer' - I knew I had that letter somehwere, just couldn't find it!

I've never heard of Murray Taylor before I'm afraid. I'd just assumed that it stood for Metro Turbo, but that's another guess in all reality?

I will change my files to state 'semi-works' - in recollection, I think you're right on the terminology. Semi-works is far more an accurate description of Paul Taft's 1984 entry in my opinion.

I also agree what a shame it was that the series fizzled out fater mid-1984, following the Austin Rover withdrawal - the series would have been so much stronger in the late 1980s as you quite rightly stated.

Er, herm, yes you're right MT is far more likely to mean Metro Turbo than Murray Taylor. Think i've soaked up too much of this sunshine!!

No probs, I think it's ace that our section of the forum has enlisted you as another 'encyclopaedic' contributor to our midst and long may your input continue!!

Along with KA and one or two other specialists it's good to have such informative and lively debates about a period that to my mind was one of the best, if not the best in touring car history and was instumental in getting my enthusiasm started.

[MG Rover Sport]

'Here here!' for 1980s Group A Touring Cars I say!

I too was 'hooked' by the sight of the Group A Rovers and MGs, although I must admit to being totally Austin Rover biased, and therefore blinkered to anything else that actually managed to reach the grid!

I thank you for your wise, and very astute acknowledgement of my 'encyclopaedic contributions' - as you call them.

With Austin Rover motorsport programmes, and more recently MG Rover, I am fine. However, everything else is of little interest I'm afraid. As such, I don't think I could add a similar amount of detail to a thread concerning BMW's or Alfa's.

I thank you again.

[GBRM]

I enjoyed watching the Group A stuff but was more interested in the Production Saloons, as that was what Dad was doing and running/preparing drivers/cars for friends and for business but he still watched with great interest and as a kid I tried to remember what was going on!!

It was a shame that Dad had the accident in '79 and things soured so badly with BL from '80 onwards and that pushed him into Production Saloons but then there were the great battles he had with Graham "Skid" Scarborough in the Capris, the Monzas with Tony Lanfranchi and John Cleland and battling against Squeaker in the BMW 6-Series and Colin Blower and Skid again in the Starions.

Obviously there was the occassional outing in Cosworths, Starion, and even Corrolas and Charades (!!), just a shame not in the Metro at the time (and I don't think he ever raced it when he owned it either).

I think it's great that there's so many people out there with interests in differant cars (even Metros!!) and have kept certain bits of info, as unfortunately minds and people do eventually leave us.

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by GBRM

...have kept certain bits of info...

I think you'd be surprised what I've kept Gregor!

More surprising is possibly what I have actually paid good money for - but that's another thread in itself.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

I think you'd be surprised what I've kept Gregor!

More surprising is possibly what I have actually paid good money for - but that's another thread in itself.

David - After going through Dad's paperwork I would not be surprised at what you have kept at all if it's anything like what he did!!

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

OT. God I still get a bit miffed thinking back to the mid 80's. How would the series have developed has ARG not pulled out with the subsequent void discouraging other factory backed outfits from entering in 85/86/87? Could have been 2 further superb seasons following on from 1984 and not the rather diluted 'club plus' level of series we had until the Sierra and M3's livened it up again 4 years later.

I reckon BMW would have continued against Rover and maybe Volvo would have been tempted in to the fray. Dave Brodie might have got full works backing for his Starions and Rouse might have got a real deal Ford gig instead of Eggenberger! Then we could have seen a fantastic match up between The Metro's, Graham Goodes Nissan and the Longman Escort Turbo's which appeared later in 85.

How we were robbed!!

Looking at what might have been is certainly interesting- At the risk of taking this totally off-topic, here's a thought, suppose Graham Goode had managed to get some backing from Nissan UK for the Bluebird (as I remember it was a totally private venture?)- might we have eventually seen him going up against the Sierras etc with a Skyline turbo, and later a 'Godzilla' Skyline GTR....?

Going back to the main thread, I wonder how much longer the Metro campaign would have run? The RS Turbo would have been a big threat from 85, and by the end of 86 the BMW M3 was imminent.... On the other hand, if you still keep the re-working of the class structure putting in a 1600-2000cc Class C in 86/7, with the Metro dropping into Class C, it might have continued for another season or two, fighting it out against factory-backed Golfs and Renault 5 Turbos...

[KA]

Originally Posted by GBRM

I enjoyed watching the Group A stuff but was more interested in the Production Saloons, as that was what Dad was doing and running/preparing drivers/cars for friends and for business but he still watched with great interest and as a kid I tried to remember what was going on!!

It was a shame that Dad had the accident in '79 and things soured so badly with BL from '80 onwards and that pushed him into Production Saloons but then there were the great battles he had with Graham "Skid" Scarborough in the Capris, the Monzas with Tony Lanfranchi and John Cleland and battling against Squeaker in the BMW 6-Series and Colin Blower and Skid again in the Starions.

...and Patrick Watts in the little Fiat Uno turbo- wasn't that one of the cars your Dad was involved with? I seem to remember Watts scoring an outright win in that, somewhere like Cadwell in the wet?

Have we had an 80's prodsaloons thread....? If not, we definitely need one

[chunterer]

The basis of plenty more theads to come perhaps gentlemen??!!

Yes I too liked the prodsaloons but like you say GBRM it is a heck of a shame that Marshall Senior wasn't in a competitive Group A car at the time as he would clearly have been a class/overall contender in almost anything!

When you look at what James Weaver was upto in the 635's, Gerry could have made it a double act of tail happy Bimmers!!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Suppose Graham Goode had managed to get some backing from Nissan UK for the Bluebird (as I remember it was a totally private venture?)- might we have eventually seen him going up against the Sierras etc with a Skyline turbo, and later a 'Godzilla' Skyline GTR....?

Yes it was privateer there was always some problem or other getting the right homologated bits for it IIRC, hence it ran into a few 'barriers' re the regs at the time.

If it had had the right development, allied with Graham's talent behind the wheel the things would have been a contender for overall wins without a doubt.

Skylines were rumoured a lot between 86-88 and we only ended up with the Marsden run example on a couple of ocassions whilst they were checking it out for a 1989 ETC campaign which never happened because the ETC ended. Shame. I'm sure we'd have aseen at least one filter down to the BTCC off the back of that effort.

Originally Posted by KA

Going back to the main thread, I wonder how much longer the Metro campaign would have run? The RS Turbo would have been a big threat from 85, and by the end of 86 the BMW M3 was imminent.... On the other hand, if you still keep the re-working of the class structure putting in a 1600-2000cc Class C in 86/7, with the Metro dropping into Class C, it might have continued for another season or two, fighting it out against factory-backed Golfs and Renault 5 Turbos...

Yes, that is entirely feasible. However it took R Longman a while to get the Escort upto scratch and the Metro was also still being developed when it was pulled out so I don't think we had seen the most of the little car by then. As said earlier Soperman reckoned he'd done 1:39s around GP circuit at the time in testing and that must have been on a par with what Longman managed in a fully sorted RST a bit later?

Can anyone check out the Escort RST's pace around there?

But like you say the class structure change in 1987 would have favoured it still even if it hadn't been able to compete with the Escort.

Originally Posted by KA

...and Patrick Watts in the little Fiat Uno turbo- wasn't that one of the cars your Dad was involved with?

Another car that could've been a competitive Group A class car but Fiat never took much interest, other than like you say in standard spec racing and also rallying and one make stuff.

I'm sure that someone had looked into the possibility of running an ex Euro Rally series Grp A Uno and it may have even tested but i'm not sure what happened to those plans?

[Peter Mallett]

Don't forget, the Metro body was changed in '86(?) so there would have been a large cost impact just because of a facelift.

Having driven one (normally aspirated) reasonably competitively I can say that they are/were great fun to drive and also if set up properly, giant killers, as Soperman proved.

I'd be interested to see what was homologated for them because they're cheap as chips these days. And Group A fits nicely with Classic Thunder.

[MG Rover Sport]

The car that was entered in a couple of auctions (004) mentions in the auction catalogue that it is an '...Evolution spec car, equipped with under front bumper fuel coolers...'

Not sure what else was planned for the car, or even homologated come to think about it Peter.

[Peter Mallett]

Well you can see those in the Soper pic.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by KA

...and Patrick Watts in the little Fiat Uno turbo- wasn't that one of the cars your Dad was involved with? I seem to remember Watts scoring an outright win in that, somewhere like Cadwell in the wet?

Have we had an 80's prodsaloons thread....? If not, we definitely need one

Yeah, Dad loved and hated that car and it ended up being so competitive. Twatts did win ouright at Cadwell, beating Blower and Skid in the Starions and by then Dad was in the Escort RS Turbo; he always said that was his first race in the wet in the Escort and he used the wets that had come with the car and they were rubbish!! I'm not sure if it's on Vintage G&T (I think it is) but I know I definitely have footage of the race on video.

One day I suppose I'd better write a list of all the cars Dad prepared in the '70s and '80s, there are probably is 30 I could think of straight away that were either built/prepared/run under variouse guises (Marshall Wingfield, Corbeau & Castrol Equippe, Gerry Marshall Racing, Triplex & Motor Dolomites, Shell Dealer Team Opel, Marshall Asquith Racing, etc!!)

I think a prod saloons thread would be good because I went to all the races and saw the cars being built from '82ish onwards and don't have to dig through the paperwork and swiss cheese brains to get the info!!

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Another car that could've been a competitive Group A class car but Fiat never took much interest, other than like you say in standard spec racing and also rallying and one make stuff.

Fiat were interested in Group 1 and were very helpful (to a degree) with Dad with Fiat Uno and Fiat Strada, but Fiat Italy and Fiat UK were two very sperate companies and didn't get on or help each other much going on the letters I have.

I ythink also they wanted outright wins which couldn't wasn't really possible with the Uno and Strada and anything bigger tahn that you rightly say was rally orientated.

I'm sure Dad could've pushed it more, but what with a divorce, business commitments and really wanting a Cossie or a Colt it never happened and the rest is history (or Tuscans and historics putting it another way!!).

[MG Rover Sport]

Getting the thread back on topic...

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well you can see those in the Soper pic.

I did notice that, Peter. I wonder if that means that as 004, AND the car used in March 1985 at Silverstone by Steve Soper, BOTH have these 'under front bumper fuel coolers' fitted, that they are one and the same evolution specification car?

I have checked some times around Silverstone, and the only one I can currently lay my hands on for a Ford Escort RS Turbo was the Nº 69 entry of Richard Longman / Alan Curnow at the 1985 Silverstone Tourist Trophy - Longman set a time of 1m 39.09s. This compares to pole position of 1m 35.11s set by the Dave Brodie / Vern Schuppan Colt Starion Turbo.

Soper's best time around there earlier that year was 1m 40.40s, compared to Neil McGarth's pole of 1m 39.42s. In the 'wet' 2nd Session, Steve was fastest overall on 1m48.94s - almost 6 seconds quicker than Frank Sytner's BMW 635 CSi on 1m 54.81s in 2nd place!

As far as I know both of the above races used the same circuit configuration.

[MG Rover Sport]

I have also jusd found details of the Bonhams Auction at Gaydon, 29th June 2003 which included the museum's ex-display car listed at Lot Nº 57.

The above article is an independent post-auction review, which states...
__________

...whilst the attractive Computervision Metro looked to be well prepared, but not well documented in the catalogue. I was pleased to see it went to the youngest bidder in the hall, not yet 14, so here’s hoping James Bradley will soon be enjoying its performance, even though it seemed at first sight rather expensive at £7000 after a character, who I am told was buying on behalf of the Japanese, kept upping the price. Apparently Tony Pond had used it on several events, but no-one really knew its history or if it was in reasonable condition with all the original parts.
__________

The £7000 hammer price, ended up at £8050 once the Buyer's Premium and Sales Tax (VAT, TVA etc) had been added.



ABOVE : Multiple Metros at the BMIHT Auction
Left: a mock-up 6R4 for a spoof TV programme. Centre: the Computervision car with a patina of competitive aging. Right: the Project Pride car that achieved many long distance records with Rover staff.



ABOVE : Computervision Metro
Little info in the catalogue but subsequently found to be a well-engineered, successful car with Tony Pond as one of its drivers.

[Peter Mallett]

If that car was driven by Pond, that would make it 002?

Pure speculation here:

Roger makes no mention of 004 because he didn't build it. There was one prep company known for innovative use of the regs,like oil coolers under rear bumpers etc. and I alluded to Steve's connection with that team previously. There is also the Herbie Clips connection. So I wonder if, when Rover first looked at this, they gave two companies the opportunity to build a car and Roger won the contract but chassis 004 remained with the second placed bidder?

Edit: Just checked back to MGS' post and this would be 001 the Pond/Brundle car.

[KA]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

ABOVE : Multiple Metros at the BMIHT Auction
Left: a mock-up 6R4 for a spoof TV programme.

Slightly off-topic: the blue & yellow 6R4 mock-up would be from an ITV drama series aired in late 85-ish. Title was something like 'Winning Streak', and from memory the plot centred around an ambitious rally driver coming back to competition with a new car (the 6R4) and big-money sponsor after having a big accident. Quite a few of the top national/club rally drivers of the period and their cars were involved, and ARG provided at least one of the early prototype 6R4s for filming.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Yeah, Dad loved and hated that car and it ended up being so competitive. Twatts did win ouright at Cadwell, beating Blower and Skid in the Starions and by then Dad was in the Escort RS Turbo; he always said that was his first race in the wet in the Escort and he used the wets that had come with the car and they were rubbish!!
I think a prod saloons thread would be good because I went to all the races and saw the cars being built from '82ish onwards and don't have to dig through the paperwork and swiss cheese brains to get the info!!

As if by magic see: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91244

Originally Posted by KA

Slightly off-topic: the blue & yellow 6R4 mock-up would be from an ITV drama series aired in late 85-ish. Title was something like 'Winning Streak', and from memory the plot centred around an ambitious rally driver coming back to competition with a new car (the 6R4) and big-money sponsor after having a big accident. Quite a few of the top national/club rally drivers of the period and their cars were involved, and ARG provided at least one of the early prototype 6R4s for filming.

Yeah I just about remember that - like a rally version of 'Driving Ambition.'

It was pretty poor apart from the chance to see the cars in action! That blue/yellow '6R4' does look like the one that was in the series.
Of course it's easy to forget that Computervision sponsored the 6R4 Metros as well as the BTCC cars, and once the BTCC ones were pulled, I suppose more of their sponsorship was poured into the Group B's?

[MG Rover Sport]

Possibly Peter, but I am also of the opinion that the auctioneers didn't really know what they were selling, certainly going by the following bold highlighted text...

'Apparently Tony Pond had used it on several events, but no-one really knew its history or if it was in reasonable condition with all the original parts.'

As 'chunterer' stated earlier in this thread - we could do with someone from Roger Dowson Engineering themselves, to confirm a few things. Either that or one of the current owners?

KA - you're dead right, although the car featured above was merely a FWD Austin Metro which had been 'dummied-up' with 6R4 bodywork, rollcage, rear engine cover, livery and alloy wheels purely for filming Yorkshire TV's 'The Winning Streak'. I could waffle on this thread for pages and pages and pages about 6R4s - but I think I'd possibly be banned, permanently!

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It was pretty poor apart from the chance to see the cars in action! That blue/yellow '6R4' does look like the one that was in the series.

See above post 'chunterer'. The film crew had 3 cars actually: 1) - the dummy in the photo above was used for static / close up shots; 2) 6R4 Reg Nº A656 NJO (Prototype Nº 001) for all the on-event action scenes; and 3) a sectioned dummy for all the interior shots.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Of course it's easy to forget that Computervision sponsored the 6R4 Metros as well as the BTCC cars, and once the BTCC ones were pulled, I suppose more of their sponsorship was poured into the Group B's?

Nope. The 6R4 wasn't Computervision sponsored until after the Metro Turbos had actually been withdrawn from the 1984 BTCC. The Computervision 6R4 debuted on the 1984 Peter Russek Manuals Rally on 4 August - almost 2 months after the BTCC withdrawal.

Hence we could speculate that we may never have seen the 6R4 sponsored by the CAD / CAM company had Austin Rover continued in the 1984 BTCC.

But don't get me talking 6R4s - PLEASE!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Possibly Peter, but I am also of the opinion that the auctioneers didn't really know what they were selling, certainly going by the following bold highlighted text...

'Apparently Tony Pond had used it on several events, but no-one really knew its history or if it was in reasonable condition with all the original parts.'

I could waffle on this thread for pages and pages and pages about 6R4s - but I think I'd possibly be banned, permanently!

Yes I guess in the absence of any hard info the auctioneers felt that Tony Pond's name would carry more weight than anyone else who pedalled it? If he did then it must have been an early car as Peter suggests, as Pond drove the first Turbo in 1983 didn't he.

I thought that we'd already confirmed that the Pond car was 003 and then did the '84 TT n Watts' hands? so if this one is 001 it must have been a 'dummy' car painted up in 84 colours then...

Actually did we find out which one got pranged at that Woodcote shunt?

Hey don't worry about waffling, it's a hobby for most of us!