Clone Fines

[Craig]

A friend of mine received a letter in the post this morning with a fine for parking in a bus lane. It seems someone may have cloned her number plate as she has never ever been in the area that the fine was incurred, much less parked in said bus lane. Of course it could be some sort of clerical error, and I have advised her to request a copy of the photo evidence, but presuming that someone has cloned the rego plates of her car, what can she do to prove her innocence? Has anyone had a similar problem in the past?

[Adam43]

I know someone who got a letter for travelling in a bus lane. It turns out the manufacturer put the same number plate on two different cars. That was easily sorted from her end though as the picture revealed a different shape car!

Presuming the cloner has been relatively clever and put the plates on a similar model then I guess she needs to prove she wasn't there. Depending on the situation that might be tricky. However if she gets the photo there might be something in it that proves it isn't her car. If not then I guess it gets complicated and she might have to start thinking if she has the car on CCTV anywhere at a similar time, or getting people to act as witnesses/alabys. My guess is that if she gets over the bureaucracy of the initial contact (the letter and fine are just processed) then someone will be helpful.

[Craig]

It was on the evening of the 20th June and she had gone straight home from work and the car was on her driveway so no footage and no witnesses. What a total pain in the arse. There must be some provision in law for this as it must happen all the time?

[ensign14]

Well, she'll have witnesses that she was at work at such-and-such a time. She can give witness evidence that she stayed at home all evening and has never been to said place - if she remembers what was on telly or whatever that'll help. She can point out that why on earth would she take the risk of committing perjury for a poxy bus lane fine.

How about phone records? If she used her home phone that would be decisive. Or internet usage? Home pooter?

[Craig]

Actually the date rang a bell with me - I was sat at Calais waiting for a ferry around the time of the alleged offence and remember ringing her. Sadly it was on her mobile phone IIRC but I will check! I'm seeing her tomorrow so hopefully I'll hear a little more about it then.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Craig

It was on the evening of the 20th June and she had gone straight home from work and the car was on her driveway so no footage and no witnesses. What a total pain in the arse. There must be some provision in law for this as it must happen all the time?

If her car was on her driveway, would her neighbours be able to vouch for the fact it was there at the relevant time?

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Craig

Actually the date rang a bell with me - I was sat at Calais waiting for a ferry around the time of the alleged offence and remember ringing her. Sadly it was on her mobile phone IIRC but I will check! I'm seeing her tomorrow so hopefully I'll hear a little more about it then.

That may do. The mobile phone chappies can tell which relay she was using to connect to the system. Itemized bill may indicate (OK, it'd have to be yours, but if she called anyone as well then there you go.)

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Sheila M

If her car was on her driveway, would her neighbours be able to vouch for the fact it was there at the relevant time?

It was over six weeks ago. I'd be hard pressed to remember if my neighbours car was home yesterday evening at 1930. In fact I cannot remember

[Vicki]

Craig, does your friends' car have any unique markings, like window stickers etc? If the cloner has a similar model it might be one way of proving her innocence. Likewise any descrepencies in paintwork etc.

[HiRich]

As others have said, just write a polite note back saying that she is disputing the charge, as she is confident that it wasn't her car. Request a copy of the image on the basis that either:
- The number has been misread by the system, or...
- Her plates have been cloned, and she will report the crime to the police.
She could save time by describing her car (e.g. FIAT Stilo,two-door, red, and distinguishing marks) to them, since the most obvious cause is misreading.

They will probably write an apology, but on the off-chance that it is more sinister, she can then use the photo to try to identify disrepancies. Only then will she need to start finding an alibi.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Occasionally mistakes are made in the processing of camera images - last year my dad's car got a fine for speeding through a temporary 40 resriction in roadworks just outside stranraer. It wasn't him as he lives over 400miles away from there, and thinking back to the date and time in question, the car was on his drive and i was with him in hospital after he'd been knocked off his bike. A quick phonecall later and it turned out that an incorrect number plate had been input into the system that sends out letters, and the fine was dropped.

As for cloning, my bosses X5 was cloned (number plate on another X5) and he kept receiving fines, congestion charge notices etc for the other vehicle. The police weren't particularly interested, despite solicitor's letters and court appearances and the issue was only settled when the clone car was pulled over for a traffic infringement and the driver's details didn't check out.

I hope in your friend's sake it's the former and not the latter that's the problem.

[TimD]

I believe that taking a call on the mobile phone will be more useful to her than you calling her on the land line, Craig. As Ensign says, every phone is connected to the system by a local relay, and a record is kept for a certain amount of time as to which relay a given number is using to receive a call.

That's how the terrorist suspect in Italy was traced - the sheer action of keeping his phone switched on allowed the authorities to have a shrewd idea of where he was headed through France and the act of making a phone call allowed them to pinpoint him to a locality in Italy.

That's a little scary if you think about it.

Regarding the misidentification of the car - that's one reason why I keep all those Le Mans stickers in the windows of the car. If a cloned Rover gets photographed from the front, I can challenge the authorities to show me the Le Mans passes, if it's snapped from the back, they have to show evidence of a five year old Goodwood sticker.

As a case in point, one of my lease cars was snapped by a speed camera and the user swore blind he'd been cloned. We saw the photo and asked him how the cloner had managed to replicate the tow-bar and National Trust badge so neatly too. He coughed up....

[Craig]

Well all the above is good advice if we need to construct a defence so thanks for the ideas! In the meantime I've advised her to write a letter explaining her predicament and disputing that she was ever there. I had a read of the letter yesterday morning and it said that she had been 'in a bus lane with evidence recorded on video.' I presume that this meant the 'offence' was recorded on one of those videos fitted to buses so hopefully it'll have the face of the driver in the video presuming that they were driving.

The offence was timed at 1738hrs and, considering she would have left work in Chelmsford sometime after 1700hrs that day she'd have done well to be in Hendon for 1738!

We actually spoke to a couple of plod at Snetterton and they were very nice but totally unhelpful really. "All you can really do is dispute it and hope that they listen." hmm... "shouldn't we report it to you so you can put it on your computer or something," we enquired, "no, we don't really do that," came the helpful response. Cheers guys.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Craig

The offence was timed at 1738hrs and, considering she would have left work in Chelmsford sometime after 1700hrs that day she'd have done well to be in Hendon for 1738!
.

That's probably the best alibi she's got - if she uses a PC at work the IT bods will have a record of the exact time she logged off. She can then prove it was impossible for her to be in Hendon at the time the offence was committed.

[ensign14]

"I nearly got in at Hendon."

"Thank you."

[Craig]

Yes, Sheila, she was in customer support and is logged in to a phone system when at work so there will be records to back this up. However she has now left that company and is concerned that they may have been wiped but she's gonna get in touch to check.

Oh and she was back in Cheltenham (via Witham) for 1930hrs when she started work in her pub, so this would explain why she was using a bus lane - she must have been in one hell of a hurry!

[Craig]

Phew - problem sorted. It was a moped using her plates! The DVLA are now insisting that she re-registers the car which is a pain as she is looking to sell the thing right now.

[ensign14]

Good selling point - the DVLA think it's a moped, which equals (a) cheaper tax and (b) immunity from speed cameras as "my vehicle is a moped, you muppet".