Brabham BT 9 (Formula 3 1964)

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Criquet

Yes, the chassis got rear short uprights, so it could be a pre-BT16 ...

The radiator is an commun one, with only water inlet and outlet !

I like to think the car been damage and rebuilt without the "AM" number !
The steering wheel seem to be a Brabham one, don't you think ?

As as read before , some Brabham chassis been modified to run in formula Ford Races, so as I found this chassis without engine/gearbox I like to do it a historic formula Ford !

Radiator is very strange, that should help identify the car.
As should the roll over bar.

The steering wheel isn't Brabham, here is the cockpit of a BT18 with the correct steering wheel.



What type of steering rack does it have?

A lot of F3 cars were converted to F.Fords so that is a reasonable option for the car - and I think the F.Ford championship doesn't ask for the full history before accepting a car?

[Criquet]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

What type of steering rack does it have?

A lot of F3 cars were converted to F.Fords so that is a reasonable option for the car - and I think the F.Ford championship doesn't ask for the full history before accepting a car?

There is no "AM" sign on the chassis, so it's help to think that is a BT 6 with modified rear end

I will take a picture of the steering rack ASAP

My target is just to identify the chassis, to register it as close as possible to the genuine one. I dont want to tell "this is a modified BT6" either it is a BT9 or BT10 ....

nb : gear shift fixing point, seems to be "on the floor", and not near the steering wheel !

[Ted Walker]

Take a photograph of the chassis area around the rear bulkhead at the bottom with the bulkhead removed.

[Criquet]

here is the bulkhead section From driver side and engine side:

[Criquet]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

The steering wheel isn't Brabham, here is the cockpit of a BT18 with the correct steering wheel.

What type of steering rack does it have?

Here is 2 pictures:

* the first one came from a sold BT6 on race-cars.com the steering wheel looks the same of mine ! That car was better rebuilt than a new one ...



* the second is a view of the steering rack which fit the chassis.

[Criquet]

Originally Posted by phdm

This car was recently offered for sale and presented as a Formula Junior by the owner ...

Yes , but the owner have never drive it and bought it as a rolling chassis without any documents on the car .....

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Criquet

Here is 2 pictures:

* the first one came from a sold BT6 on race-cars.com the steering wheel looks the same of mine ! That car was better rebuilt than a new one ...

* the second is a view of the steering rack which fit the chassis.

Brabham steering wheels are pretty rare, they had curved spokes, as in the photo I posted, lots of cars have had theirs replaced over the years.

The dark blue car sold on race-cars.com has a lot wrong cockpit details - the instrument panel, gearchange, seat, steering wheel....

That isn't a Brabham steering rack - they used a cast rack (made by Jack Knight?) with unusual ball joints at the end of the rack (Renault Dauphine?).
It looks to be something like a modified Mini rack.

Rather than try to prove that it is a Brabham it might be easier to start looking for Brabham copies - Alpines etc like someone said before - and look for similarities to them (one of them had a similar radiator for example).

Such a copy is likely to be more interesting (easily identifiable history) than a heavily modified Brabham.

Peter

[Ted Walker]

From the Bulkhead shots its NOT a BT6. I would think it very unlikely to be a Brabham of any kind.Its just a 60s Brabham type special.

[Criquet]

thank to all of you for you help.

[piglos]

I just happened to be reading up on Greg Cusack's BT6 [FJ-15-63], and the article mentions it being involved in an accident 26/1/64 and the front end being wiped off from the dash forward.
Quote:
"The car was rebuilt using a new BT9 Formula 3 chassis, new suspension and body." (Source: John B Blanden's Historic Racing Cars in Australia)
This rebuild would have occured late January-mid February, so I was wondering if anybody would have a chassis number for this, or would it likely only bear an AM number?

[Bryan Miller]

The car would not have an AM number as they were not building the chassis at that time, Arch Motors didn't start building the frames until the BT14 series.

[piglos]

Umm, of course.

[Criquet]

So if Arch motor doesn't built chassis until bt14 how it's possible to identify mine ?

Someone saids me that rear uprights had special in cast leters.
Is someone of you gots pictures details of originals rear uprights ?

[allenbrown]

Yes, there would have been a number stamped on the rear if the car had a genuine Brabham frame. Even before Arch Motors, there was still a number - it just didn't start AM.

[Simon Hadfield]

Actually Allen there should be a number but not necessarily on the rear of the chassis (and without giving too much away a different typeface as well).

[Ted Walker]

NOT always Simon , depends who made the frame,not many of the Arch replacement frame had Nos,Not all of the Buckler produced frames had them either

[Denis Lupton]

Some facts have come to light on F3-7-64, entered and driven by
Walter Habegger at the Nurburgring on 27/9/64.
Various entrants and drivers through '64, '65, '66, etc, though
W. Habegger. seems to be a constant.
At present the car is on the high seas,travelling from France to Australia,
to further enrich the local Brabham population.
Any details on the car gladly received,
Denis

[mshillingburg]

I have aquired a Brabham bt9. F3-8-64 I have history back to the 1970's
The car last ran as a formula ford here in Colorado. Any one with history,
facts, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Thx
Mark Shillingburg

[Chris Townsend]

Mark

This car was noted early in 1965 as Goodwin Racing for Dave Rees, run until his BT15 was ready. I presume that it was, therefore, the BT9 run by John Cardwell with Goodwin in 1964. Would appreciate trail of owners that you have so that we can, perhaps, fill in the gaps

Chris

[mshillingburg]

Chris,
Thx for your info on F3-8-64. The history I have; Jack Idlegeorge bought the
car after a race at Continental Divide Raceways, Castle Rock, Colorado
from a fellow from California (no name or date yet). It was a Formula C with an 1100cc Coventry Climax. Sold then
to Kasahara (sp?) then to Max Ray. The Climax engine was sold and John
Barker converted the car to FF for Max Ray in late 1969. Next owner is
Bob Parham who campaigned the car in FF. Bob Parham stored the car until
my purchase this fall. The missing history is between 1965 Goodwin Racing
and the California gentleman who brought the car to race in Colorado.
Thx,
Mark Shillingburg

[Chris Townsend]

Mark

I think that Jack Idlegeorge might be Jack Eiteljorg or Eitelgorge - well known SCCA racer in late 60s. Do you have a dae for Bob Parham getting the car?

Chris

[allenbrown]

Jack Eiteljorg of Englewood, CO and John Eitelgeorge of Ohio are two entirely separate people. Both ran Brabhams at one time or another, Eiteljorg an ex-F1 BT11 in 1967 and Eitelgeorge an unknown Brabham in the Mid-Ohio F5000 races in 1970 and 1971.

A Californian was unlikely to be at Continental Divide for a National so it could be one of the 'pro' races. There were pro races there in 1965 and 1966 but that might be too early for a BT9. Charlie Adams (Hermosa Beach, CA) had a mystery 1100cc Brabham at Continental Divide in May 1967 but this was said to be a Brabham-Ford. I don't yet have the entry list for that race - that might tell us more.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Jack Eiteljorg runs a Brabham at the 1966 SCCA finals. Is this our BT9 or the BT11? The BT9 is not around in UK races after mid 65

Chris

[allenbrown]

So he is. I hadn't spotted that before. He is numbered #411 in that race - the '4' will be his region but looking at the other entry numbers, the first '1' appears to denote that he was running in FC. So yes, that would look like F3-8-64 and tell us it was Eiteljorg, not Eitelgeorge. It would also point to the race where Eiteljorg bought it being 1966. The only Brabham in the 1965 Run-Offs is that of Nick Dioguadi, a Californian in a FC. Do we know what Nick Dio had?

Allen

[allenbrown]

PS He bought the BT11 about March/April 1967 from the Indy people who'd been copying it.