The madness of unneccessary F1 costs.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Arrivabene says that F1 that F1 must be affordable. The question as usual will be how to get those involved to agree on a method that is realistic and doable.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118325

At least one of the best funded teams in the business believes in the need for cost reduction. Howver is it just hot air.

I think that if you asked the principals of all the better off teams individually whether they believed they would all answer in the affirmative. The problem lies in that they find it impossible, under present conditions, to actually agree amongst themselves how to realistically achieve that objective, because they will only consider what they perceive to be in the best interest of their own team.

My suggestion is that they are all locked in a room without windows, with a bucket in the corner for emergency use, until they can come up with a set of proposals that can be implemented that benefits F1 and reduces costs, whilst bringing back a sporting ethic and real racing on the track without all the gimmicks.

I bet that they would be able to achieve that objective within a relatively short time, maybe 1 to 2 hours!

[Paradise City]

Yeah, it's very easy for these bosses to make these noble pronouncements "something must be done about these damned costs!". When the nitty gritty of working this out starts up, the teams defend their own immediate interests like lions under the probably accurate presumption that the other guy is scheming away to grab his undue share.

I don't see them ever breaking this cycle tbh and the sport will be wreaked with upheaval because of it. One of the perils of the now toothless FIA giving away such power to the teams.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think that if you asked the principals of all the better off teams individually whether they believed they would all answer in the affirmative. The problem lies in that they find it impossible, under present conditions, to actually agree amongst themselves how to realistically achieve that objective, because they will only consider what they perceive to be in the best interest of their own team.

My suggestion is that they are all locked in a room without windows, with a bucket in the corner for emergency use, until they can come up with a set of proposals that can be implemented that benefits F1 and reduces costs, whilst bringing back a sporting ethic and real racing on the track without all the gimmicks.

I bet that they would be able to achieve that objective within a relatively short time, maybe 1 to 2 hours!

Well this was secret footage taped from the last closed session of the F1 Cost Control Commision. As you can see things do not bode well.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Well this was secret footage taped from the last closed session of the F1 Cost Control Commision. As you can see things do not bode well.

The Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World of Formula 1.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Well this was secret footage taped from the last closed session of the F1 Cost Control Commision. As you can see things do not bode well.

That is funny and appropriate! And I happen to love that movie.

Richard

[old man]

No Matter how many times a senior team person says we should cut costs the teams will spend what they got.

The only way to cut costs is to make it possible to run competitively on a low(er) budget and that is down to the FIA and the regulations.

Sadly, the FIA do not control the regulations anymore

Modestly, when congratulated on TV on the Malaysian win Arrivabene said it was not down to him but to the 1000 people back in Italy that design and build the car

[djinvicta]

Lets hope Lotus can keep going...
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns30498.html

[ECW Dan Selby]

Definitely some difficult times ahead for Formula One, no doubt.

Selby

[Casper]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Definitely some difficult times ahead for Formula One, no doubt.

Selby

It would seem so. It must be remembered though that there is nothing stopping any team from spending less, it is up to them to bite the bullet and do so. The next time one of them complains someone should remind them of that little fact.

[bjohnsonsmith]

This is quite a long article but well worth a read, in which Max Mosley suggests teams should rip up their contracts.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...356.1427643335

[SWCRacing]

What an idiot!! If they did that they would be in court before the new what hit them! And all BCE would do is call GP2 F1 and be on his merry way to the bank......

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

This is quite a long article but well worth a read, in which Max Mosley suggests teams should rip up their contracts.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...356.1427643335

I can't see any change happening soon maybe at one minute to midnight they might start talking but it could be too late for the less well off teams.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I think it'd be a very interesting concept for the teams to gather round, and publicly tear the contracts up in a show of unity and protest.

F1 needs teams in order to operate.

Of course, there's an issue or two:

1) Bernie could take them to court. Ok, but what happens at Bahrain where no teams turn up? Bernie would be in breach of his contracts with the venues to provide a race!

2) There'll always be one... One team will not join in and try to stick by Bernie's side.

Still, interesting concept. Very powerful!

Selby

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I think it'd be a very interesting concept for the teams to gather round, and publicly tear the contracts up in a show of unity and protest.

F1 needs teams in order to operate.

Of course, there's an issue or two:

1) Bernie could take them to court. Ok, but what happens at Bahrain where no teams turn up? Bernie would be in breach of his contracts with the venues to provide a race!

2) There'll always be one... One team will not join in and try to stick by Bernie's side.

Still, interesting concept. Very powerful!

Selby

This is just history, potentially, repeating itself after just a short break. The reason that FOTA was set up by all the teams was to put pressure on B.C.E. and the FIA to enhance their position. In fact, if memory serves me well, the teams were in a fairly strong position at that time because the then current Concorde Agreements had lapsed or were about to lapse, and FOM needed the teams to sign up so as to fulfil the FOM's own contracts with the circuits.

As is usual in Formula 1, it didn't take too long for the teams to start arguing amongst themselves over whether they should serve Bourbon Cream biscuits, Custard Creams or Chocolate Digestives with their mid morning coffee break. And when it came to actually be decisive about less important matters such as the future of F1, Ferrari skulked off to Mr E and brokered a nice little deal for themselves. They were then followed by the Red Bull twins, and thus to the demise of FOTA.

Still, it's a nice idea!

[djinvicta]

Actually, one post off topic, Peek Freans went bust, so original Custard Creams and Bourbons you cant buy now. Only imitations. Mods, delete this if you want, but I was a passionate eater of both....

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I think it'd be a very interesting concept for the teams to gather round, and publicly tear the contracts up in a show of unity and protest.

F1 needs teams in order to operate.

Of course, there's an issue or two:

1) Bernie could take them to court. Ok, but what happens at Bahrain where no teams turn up? Bernie would be in breach of his contracts with the venues to provide a race!

2) There'll always be one... One team will not join in and try to stick by Bernie's side.

Still, interesting concept. Very powerful!

Selby

The biggest potential other 'influencers' have always been to meek to challenge FOM over what are allegedly one side agreements (albeit to which they agreed at the time) at this is the circuits. Put aside FOTA if there had been a GPCA (GP circuits association) that collectively lobbied FOM (and meant it) they would hold some serious cards to play and would have indirectly aided the FIA in wresting some sense of reason back from FOM and the leading teams.

Without FIA approved circuits, FOM has nowhere to race, no show - for get the cars for a momnet, if every team left F!, BE could cobble together some Super GP2 cars and puit a grid of cars together. But event FOM and CVC can't build 20 $200M circuits.

Too many circuits have signed up to deals that they can't afford against an impossible business model. Some others are struggling to justify the huge public subsidy invested on the back of 'overall' increase in the economy, whilst others that don't need to justify the spend to anyone have little motorsport heritage and are always likely to lose interest and turn their gaze to trying to attract the football world cup or Olmpics to put themselves on the world stage.

So, the circuits could have held the power, IMO.

[chillibowl]

sort of going in this direction in the Max thread, but the FIA to me seem equally complicit in this move away from traditional circuits. i would be curious to know exactly what the quid pro quo is whenever they approve a new circuit.

rather how much extra money does the FIA get in fees and kickbacks each time a traditional circuit disappears in favour of an Azerbaijan or Thailand?

or from another point of view dont the cicuits already have an association?
shouldn't it be the governing body (ie the FIA) that sets the standards for their construction and sanctions their existence?

anyways just thinking out loud and the FIA are hardly the worst culprits. F1 is a gravy train and many many groups are in line to feed.

[wolfhound]

To the best of my knowledge there is a circuits association headed by Ron Walker of Australia who is a mate of BE.

So nothing is going to happen in that quater withour Bernie knowing about it.

[wolfhound]

On another cost for F1 there is an article on Crash.net about logistics and transport for a F1 team looking at a cost of about 7.5 million for one midfield team.

http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/2176...with-care.html

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

What an idiot!! If they did that they would be in court before the new what hit them! And all BCE would do is call GP2 F1 and be on his merry way to the bank......

I take it you weren't a fan during the FISA-FOCA war.

I don't have access to the full article and I assume it at least mentions the FISA-FOCA war, and Mosley's part in it, but I can easily imagine something similar happening again.

If most of the teams stood together, the contracts wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on.

[SWCRacing]

I was a fan during the FISA / FOCA "war", and whilst similar, the current situation is different.

F1 is now a global business, back in the late 70s early 80s it was a bunch of enthusiasts going racing on the back of sponsor $

The reason it is a global business is down to BCE and Spanky's efforts to wrest more and more control from FISA (FIA) and therefore more and more $$$$

Nowadays, since the commercial rights to the promotion of F1 were sold to BCE by Spanky in his capacity as then FIA President, the sole driver of the sport is to raise money through staging motor races at venues that are willing to sign up to a contract that contains various terms that restrict the venue earning other revenue from the event apart from the ticket sales. Add to that the TV money that flows to F1 World Championship Limited through BCE's efforts with smoke and mirrors to sell the races as glamorous and exclusive and you will see that it is a business, nothing more.

The teams know it is a business. A majority of team owners, principals or sporting directors (or whatever they call themselves) have become extremely wealthy because of BCEs control of the $$$. They also know that BCE (and more than likely the lawyers that make up the vast majority of the board of F1WC Ltd) would sue them back to poverty if they breached any fundamental contract that they have in place

Unfortunately, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.....

As to the post earlier about the FIA getting kickbacks from the new circuits, honestly, I despair of some views on here!!

The FIA get circa $30m from F1WC Ltd per year as their payment for the commercial rights. Any new circuit design has to be approved by the national ASN and the FIA if they want to have an International grade. If they want to have an F1 grade (either testing or race) then they need further inspections during construction and before opening. The procedure, and criteria for design and inspection of circuits is all freely available on the FIA website. Reading them might be interesting to some people....

[chillibowl]

Is was just asking a question, but if memory serves wasn't the sale of the commercial rights back in 2000? completed after and directly related to anti trust charges/investigation by the European Commision?

but if their web site says they are above reproach I guess they must be then.

[Mike Harte]

Obviously BCE has been paying attention to the woes of his good friends at Red Bull, and is back on his soap box again (see Autosport website) saying that F1 needs to return to V8s that can be modified to produce 1000 bhp. Firstly, I can't understand what is so important about this mystical figure of 1000 bhp; the cars, in their last days of V8 power were surely fast enough, and circuits had had to be modified so that their speed could be accomodated?

I know that I have said this before but he seems to rushing to the defence of the engine supplier that was the driving force behind the change to the current format. Renault, in about 2010/11, stated that they would withdraw as an engine provider if the FIA didn't mandate a small displacement turbo assisted unit, and they have been involved in all the decision making on the new PSUs. Since that time, Mercedes who would have been happy then to continue with the V8s as a show case for their up-market high performance fleet, now face pressure from their main board of directors to continue to highlight the fuel saving of the new units.

That leaves Honda and Ferrari. Honda only agreed to join the fray because of the concept of F1 using hybrid power-units, so are highly unlikely to stay around if the sport was to return to the V8s. So, Ferrari are BCE's only hope, but I can't see Maranello being overjoyed at the thought of F1 becoming Formula Ferrari.

Mr E seems to indicate that he believes that all of F1's woes can be attributed to the current PSUs, and that if F1 returned to using V8s that the fans would flock to the tracks to watch the racing, and viewers would turn on their TVs to see the battles on the pay to view channels. He appears to have overlooked the fact that the circuits have to charge an eye-watering amount to watch the race in person because of the astronomical fees that FOM extracts from the circuits for the privilege of holding a Grand Prix. And he ignores the fact that he has screwed a king's ransom from the TV broadcasters that they then have to pass on to the viewer.

Actually, I am pretty certain that he hasn't forgotten any of the above, but as they wouldn't fit in with his latest pronouncements he just pretends that the facts don't exist.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Obviously BCE has been paying attention to the woes of his good friends at Red Bull, and is back on his soap box again (see Autosport website) saying that F1 needs to return to V8s that can be modified to produce 1000 bhp. Firstly, I can't understand what is so important about this mystical figure of 1000 bhp; the cars, in their last days of V8 power were surely fast enough, and circuits had had to be modified so that their speed could be accomodated?

I know that I have said this before but he seems to rushing to the defence of the engine supplier that was the driving force behind the change to the current format. Renault, in about 2010/11, stated that they would withdraw as an engine provider if the FIA didn't mandate a small displacement turbo assisted unit, and they have been involved in all the decision making on the new PSUs. Since that time, Mercedes who would have been happy then to continue with the V8s as a show case for their up-market high performance fleet, now face pressure from their main board of directors to continue to highlight the fuel saving of the new units.

That leaves Honda and Ferrari. Honda only agreed to join the fray because of the concept of F1 using hybrid power-units, so are highly unlikely to stay around if the sport was to return to the V8s. So, Ferrari are BCE's only hope, but I can't see Maranello being overjoyed at the thought of F1 becoming Formula Ferrari.

Mr E seems to indicate that he believes that all of F1's woes can be attributed to the current PSUs, and that if F1 returned to using V8s that the fans would flock to the tracks to watch the racing, and viewers would turn on their TVs to see the battles on the pay to view channels. He appears to have overlooked the fact that the circuits have to charge an eye-watering amount to watch the race in person because of the astronomical fees that FOM extracts from the circuits for the privilege of holding a Grand Prix. And he ignores the fact that he has screwed a king's ransom from the TV broadcasters that they then have to pass on to the viewer.

Actually, I am pretty certain that he hasn't forgotten any of the above, but as they wouldn't fit in with his latest pronouncements he just pretends that the facts don't exist.

Quite. It's not the engines. It never was the engines. It's the amount of money extracted from the sport making ticket prices too expensive and pay TV necessary that is wrecking the viewing figures, and the aero of the cars making it difficult to overtake. Nothing whatsoever to do with the engines.

In fact, I find the current engines much more interesting that anything that has gone before. They are new, high tech and more road relevant. A non-hybrid v8 would be effectively the same, albeit better engineered, as the engines used for the last 60 years. Meanwhile, WEC and the like are going more and more hybrid, and have teams coming out of their ears and great racing.

[wolfhound]

Bernie was obviously not at at Silverstone last weekend where we had great racing because of Hybrid power, considerably better than that which took place in China.

Oh and there was a few of Bernie's beloved V8's in some of the cars as well. Remarkably quiet some of the V8's were as well.