Historic replicas. A sensible discussion please

[gt917]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Race em all in the Kitcar Challenge, job done!

Al, You stirrer !!!!! You should know better.

These are not kit cars and nor is Tims. With no disrespect to the kit car series, our cars are totally out of place there.

Regards the 40 .... small block 5ltr Ford V8.

[delta]

Sure is interesting reading all the post on this thread.I know we have all talked about this subject before, and as I recall there is never a conclusive answer. Its a bit like why do we chose to race historics ,replica's or original's.
Some of you know I was lucky enough to test and race the Ferrari156 Sharknose recreation,well I did not care that it was not an original the expearence was just fantastic.
BTW Graham any chance of a go in the 917 thats before Simon H ask.

[zefarelly]

It'll never be conclusive as no 2 cases are the same

having said that, I've never seen two Lotus Cortinas the same, thats the way they made them I reckon, all 17,000 of them

[Adam43]

So, are we putting people off discussing their motorsport here?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by gt917

I digress.

Where are all those others that we used to race with .....
Lister Jaguar, Lola T70, Etype, Dtype,Cobra,GT40, etc, etc. Do none of the owners look at this 10/10s site. Is it to be the same merry band of us who make up the conversation each time.

As for good races to enter .... as it stands at this very moment in time, apart from John and Claires 360 and the obvious Spa races, there is nothing set in concrete. You are fortunate with the Jaguar based cars that you race in their series.You get invites.
Depite the COGs very good site and the new proposed Spirit of the sixties series BARC knew nothing other than how much it was to join their club, AMOC did not know about the defunct Heritage GT Challenge, and the SRGTs, despite having their very own 10/10ths section have proposed nothing and is all very quiet. I,ve even approached Bernie Chodosh to see if the 40 would be eligible for his V8 series and have had no reply to date. CSCC say no and Porsche EC have nothing. As can be seen in another thread i have even approached VdeV regarding their races in Europe and the jury is out on that still.
Any prizes for trying ?

Sadly Graham in the grand scheme of things there's not many people who post on here, it may look busy but it's probably limited to the same 30 or so people so I doubt you'll hear much from the replica car owning fraternity.

I no longer race in the Jaguar series due to falling numbers and then amalgamation with with CSCC Caterfields and other considerations. It's a bit of a long winded story but suffice to say that numbers fell due to people retiring or moving on to different cars.

Let's get on to racing. What do you want the SRGTC to propose? They've sent questionnaires out and asked various people what they want but got very little response and since the Crossles decided to go it alone (and start a very very similar series with a different title, why?) numbers have dropped but due to another series that was in danger of closing we are now propping them up, not so good for the SRGT but good for them though. I have a calendar for the SRGTC for 2012 and are fully amalgamated into the 750MC so it's not as if they have stood still.

As far as AMOC not knowing about the Heritage debacle I doubt the AMOC are capable of running a **** up in a brewery.

So you have a few places to race, SRGTC would love to see you but you have you reasons for not wanting to be part of them. There are a few European races you could do and then there's COG, until no doubt they can fill grids with more suitable cars. Lastly from what you say there's a possibility of Bernies series so tbh I'm not sure what your concerns are as there's more races available than you'd have time to do.

[gt917]

Its a bit like why do we chose to race historics ,replica's or original's.
Some of you know I was lucky enough to test and race the Ferrari156 Sharknose recreation,well I did not care that it was not an original the expearence was just fantastic.
BTW Graham any chance of a go in the 917 thats before Simon H ask.[/QUOTE]

Why do we choose to race historics, replicas or originals?

For me, i had a love affair with the beautiful brutal sports cars of the mid sixties through to about 1972. I was at LeMans in 1969 and 1970 and saw them racing in the flesh. Although at that time i was racing an 850cc special saloon mini in the old Hepolite-Glacier championship, it cemented a dream to build and race the two most iconic and favorite cars of mine, the GT40 and Porsche 917K in Gulf livery.Could never afford the originals. Well, fast forward a few years and thats just what i did, and the doors that opened up for me with Gulf Oil using the cars and my knowledge for publicity has been fantastic.

Trouble is now, and for the last two or three seasons, the races have not been there like they used to be, and nor have the finances to fund it so well.

Yes, you can try the 917. Just wear brown trousers and appreciate your vunerabilty !!!!

[Ben Shuckburgh]

It seems to me that, as has already been said by others, there is a place for everything to race.
When it comes to historic racing, if the series requires HTPs it needs to be, as JR said, an exact match to the homologated spec. If it is, then it doesn't matter how much of the car has been replaced, remanufactured or recreated over the years - from a single wheel to the whole car (tyres!). I agree with Simon Hadfield, If it's exact then it's fair. I'd contend that there are virtually no cars running that are 100% original.

Answering the original question:

We've built a replica of the Cunningham C4R that has an original Cunningham chassis. (JSW - the same guys who built the Sharknose that Delta mentioned) The engine, axle, gearbox and other parts started life together with that chassis in the Cunningham factory in 1953. But the car was never completed. Everything else has been either re-made using the factory drawings or are "original" old parts. It is clearly not original but is a "true replica"
There were only two completed and raced in period and they are both in museums so not much chance of seeing one raced in anger. With a car like this, there's clearly no question of it being seen as anything other than what it is. HTPs applied for.

[gt917]

Ben,

That is the dogs conkers and with an original chassis, engine, gearbox and its rarity, truly worthy of papers. Fabulous.

Neither of mine have original chassis, engines or gearboxes. Last original bare chassis only for a GT40 i heard of selling was £60,000 and only way of getting hold of a tubular 917 chassis is to have one made from original drawings and jigs at over £30.000.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Ben Shuckburgh

It seems to me that, as has already been said by others, there is a place for everything to race.
When it comes to historic racing, if the series requires HTPs it needs to be, as JR said, an exact match to the homologated spec. If it is, then it doesn't matter how much of the car has been replaced, remanufactured or recreated over the years - from a single wheel to the whole car (tyres!). I agree with Simon Hadfield, If it's exact then it's fair. I'd contend that there are virtually no cars running that are 100% original.

Answering the original question:

We've built a replica of the Cunningham C4R that has an original Cunningham chassis. (JSW - the same guys who built the Sharknose that Delta mentioned) The engine, axle, gearbox and other parts started life together with that chassis in the Cunningham factory in 1953. But the car was never completed. Everything else has been either re-made using the factory drawings or are "original" old parts. It is clearly not original but is a "true replica"
There were only two completed and raced in period and they are both in museums so not much chance of seeing one raced in anger. With a car like this, there's clearly no question of it being seen as anything other than what it is. HTPs applied for.

Ben,that is lovely and because of the fact that you have used original chassis and whatever was salvageable from other original parts,I see no reason why papers would be an issue. Not really a 'continuation' car though,is it?

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

If you can buy a replacement chassis from Merlyn for a MK6 (for example) and everything that bolts on is available from Merylyn, or elsewhere, eg triumph rack, engine / box then an exact replica of a reasonably valuable car shouldn't be too hard to achieve.
:

You can indeed buy a replacement Merlyn Mk6 chassis but only when you produce the old one if you want to buy it from CRD (the factory).
Elan's are probably easier still given that you can go onto Tony Thompsons website and buy every part required to build from scratch and given Tony is in charge of issuing Elan paper's it is a fair assumption that his development is considered acceptable!

[Ben Shuckburgh]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Ben,that is lovely and because of the fact that you have used original chassis and whatever was salvageable from other original parts,I see no reason why papers would be an issue. Not really a 'continuation' car though,is it?

No, as I said Terence it's a replica. But a "real" one.................

[Simon Hadfield]

Quote; Elan's are probably easier still given that you can go onto Tony Thompsons website and buy every part required to build from scratch and given Tony is in charge of issuing Elan paper's......

What? In his dreams perhaps......

[Tim Falce]

getting more back on topic, the only original parts left of my car are the body and bonnet, two rear driveshafts and hubs plus the bell housing, does that make it a non original copy of a replica?

[john ruston]

A 917 for example needing HTP's requires the same type of engine, gearbox brakes etc as in period plus the same bodywork/chassis.It all about money if if people can't afford it or they are not prepared to spend the money,tough!I want a P4 Ferrari but will never bring myself to spend that type of dosh even if I had it!
If you tick all those boxes you get the papers.

[Mike Bell]

I've got two cars that have raced on & off from their period creation- as pure racing cars. They both have FIA papers. Anything else I own started out as a road car and then at some point in it's life was converted to race spec, but period race spec according to it's homologation papers and FIA rules of the day. They (if deemed required) have without difficulty been issued with FIA papers as well.

If I wanted to build / race a Lotus Cortina (for example!) it would not concern me if it started life as a genuine original car or a two door Cortina that is converted to same spec. The required changes can be carried out now as they were in period. Obviously the cost / value would be reflected in whether former or latter.

Where it all goes wrong is when cars are suggested to be genuine / original when they are not. That is up to the honesty / integrity of their owners and or builders....

Ben, the Cunningham looks fantastic and it's history is already interesting! Enjoy.

[Al Weyman]

My friend is good mates with a guy who owns a private collection of 917s inc the lieghton house one but they won't be on track ever so its good to see the recreation.

[Al Weyman]

Bens car is not original it has race number by cadart on it lol

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

Quote; Elan's are probably easier still given that you can go onto Tony Thompsons website and buy every part required to build from scratch and given Tony is in charge of issuing Elan paper's......

What? In his dreams perhaps......

the same can be said for TVR's, and Ginetta's, and yes some people have issued papers, legit or otherwise, V5's if not HTP's!

[Peter Mallett]

This bodyshell, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=p5197.c0.m619 is an original car (if it is as described), to my knowledge it appeared at the 1982 Donington TT driven by Terry Nichols. If someone bought it they would need centre lock hubs and wheels, fully adjustable suspension, a 3.4 with triple carbs, ZF gearbox etc. A very expensive replication. But would they actually be building a replica or restoring an original?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Ben Shuckburgh

It seems to me that, as has already been said by others, there is a place for everything to race.
When it comes to historic racing, if the series requires HTPs it needs to be, as JR said, an exact match to the homologated spec. If it is, then it doesn't matter how much of the car has been replaced, remanufactured or recreated over the years - from a single wheel to the whole car (tyres!). I agree with Simon Hadfield, If it's exact then it's fair. I'd contend that there are virtually no cars running that are 100% original.

Answering the original question:

We've built a replica of the Cunningham C4R that has an original Cunningham chassis. (JSW - the same guys who built the Sharknose that Delta mentioned) The engine, axle, gearbox and other parts started life together with that chassis in the Cunningham factory in 1953. But the car was never completed. Everything else has been either re-made using the factory drawings or are "original" old parts. It is clearly not original but is a "true replica"
There were only two completed and raced in period and they are both in museums so not much chance of seeing one raced in anger. With a car like this, there's clearly no question of it being seen as anything other than what it is. HTPs applied for.

Ben,

It seems to me that is a perfectly legitimate thing to do and difficult to object to if you are building a recreation from mainly original parts that were sitting in the factory of origin, ready for construction in period. Fantastic job; will we see it out?

[Ben Shuckburgh]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Ben,

It seems to me that is a perfectly legitimate thing to do and difficult to object to if you are building a recreation from mainly original parts that were sitting in the factory of origin, ready for construction in period. Fantastic job; will we see it out?

Thanks John. Yes, entry sent in for Le Mans Classic (fingers crossed) and I hope to run it in MRL's Woodecote trophy and one or two others - finances allowing. Le Mans is VERY expensive!

[Al Weyman]

It was at Goodwood and looked fabulous, (sorry I missed you Ben).

[terence]

Originally Posted by Ben Shuckburgh

No, as I said Terence it's a replica. But a "real" one.................

That was my point Ben,built using ORIGINAL parts,not brand new off the shelf items.
The whole point of original verse's continuation is that as long as the available grid slots are filled,no one REALLY cares!!!!


RE The Capri on E Bay,located North of Paris,very interesting project,glad I spotted it earlier!

[gt917]

Originally Posted by john ruston

A 917 for example needing HTP's requires the same type of engine, gearbox brakes etc as in period plus the same bodywork/chassis.It all about money if if people can't afford it or they are not prepared to spend the money,tough!I want a P4 Ferrari but will never bring myself to spend that type of dosh even if I had it!
If you tick all those boxes you get the papers.

John,

I see what you say and accept you have your opinion. To put the record straight though my 917 recreation does have the correct "Kurz" bodywork (David Piper),a tubular chassis, wheels, Porsche brakes(there were five different braking systems+ABS experimentation) alloy uprights, etc, etc. It was the first 917 replica(whatever) in the world to race and at Spa(2005) of all places. At no time have i asked for, or would ever get papers for it, or the 40.
It has been my dream and nightmare, not yours.

Can we get back to the original subject please.

Tim,
good point you have there. Just goes to show how easy it is for cars, whether replica or not, to be damaged and repaired, and thus lose their "originality". Both of mine have had replacements through wear, tear and racing mishaps!! Someone captured this shot blasting and ageing process at Donnington many years ago with you avoiding the ensuing smoke screen that the 40 threw up
At least with replicas we are not scared of damaging our priceless museum cars.

[Al Weyman]

Isnt that a point though, as maybe the hotshoes will push a bit too hard in a replica?