Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[Fogelhund]

I do believe some of the frustration felt by some, is that this is a colossal waste of money, that could and should be utilized elsewhere. The latest of Panoz's pet projects, I think many would have preferred the money go to building a proper LMP, investing in his series, or prize money to attract entrants to the LMP1 category. There was some discussion last year, around appearance or prize money, to attract a targeted five new LMP1 cars. The decision was to fund the DW instead.

[Mystery]

LM has a strong and deep field, with reserves to spare. Adding the DW without losing an entry is harmless (assuming it's not actually a rolling chicane - time will tell)

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Mystery

LM has a strong and deep field, with reserves to spare. Adding the DW without losing an entry is harmless (assuming it's not actually a rolling chicane - time will tell)

If they dropped the whole "special entry" sillyness for the 56th spot we could have Pro-class IMSA, Lotus or second factory Aston instead of Wang now...

HOWEVER, I suppose every year needs it own little clown - last year we had AMR-Ones, year before that RSR Jaguar, Autocon, JLOC and so on.

[Down F0rce]

Do we really need another Ferrari or Porsche? If you like those cars there are plenty of them in the race already. Part of the appeal of this style of racing for me is the variety of cars on offer... so yes, bring on the Delta Wing.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

Do we really need another Ferrari or Porsche? If you like those cars there are plenty of them in the race already. Part of the appeal of this style of racing for me is the variety of cars on offer... so yes, bring on the Delta Wing.

We do because GTE-PRO is looking rather thin atm...

IMSA is a long time supporter of ACO unlike these guys. And I think the Evora deserves to be there because of their ILMC commitments last year, no matter how weak that car might be (also brings the variety you're after). The second works Aston would be nice for obvious reasons, even if that car is running with BMW-esque breaks

[joeb]

Mr. Bear tweeted that Ford turned down the chance for the Delta Wing to use their engine, so Nissan is lending them one.

@Murphythebear
After Ford said no, Nissan will loan the DeltaWing a motor for its shakedown. Not a lot of clamoring to get aboard this project, is there?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by AGD

It's really easy to think out side the box when you get your own rulebook. In terms of innovation, this is no Q9 "Sparky" or P1 hybrid even.

If the rulebook said you had a certain amount of energy to go the distance, some safety rules, some maximum dimensions, maybe some rules discouraging expensive exotic materials and fabrication processes, then you would see all kinds of interesting stuff. The problem is, now the rules over-specify stuff. It's worse in F1, which is why you see more variety at Le Mans.

Minimum weights is a biggie. Originally they were created to keep teams from making cars so light and fragile the driver had no chance in a crash. Now, there is fairly decent crash testing, so the minimum weight approach has outlived its usefulness. You can't have a "half the weight" concept if the rules specify the minimum weight.

Now, particularly in F1, the status quo has a lot of power. Big teams with big budgets don't want to be embarrassed by some little team with a better idea. Even with the rules as they are, Red Bull manages to do that somewhat, but if the rules were really open, you would see a lot more of that.

Hopefully this car will put on a good show and encourage the ACO to look at more open rules to encourage innovation.

[the real Stig]

I believe DW are getting a very large grant from the government under the curtain of alternative/green energy. Anyone remember Delorean?
Expect a Delorean style flop or regular front suspension in the next 4 months.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If they dropped the whole "special entry" sillyness for the 56th spot we could have Pro-class IMSA, Lotus or second factory Aston instead of Wang now...

HOWEVER, I suppose every year needs it own little clown - last year we had AMR-Ones, year before that RSR Jaguar, Autocon, JLOC and so on.

Exactly. It's not like the ACO created an extra grid spot for the Wang. It's taking one of the normal spots from last year. Yes, the 56th garage idea has been around for a few years now, but I don't really see the point of needing it this year when the two mega heavyweights of ACO style racing are bringing fancy hybrid systems that will compete for the overall win. That is a more intriguing story line and the technology is more relevant to street cars.

As far as giving the Wang the clown car spot, well, maybe. That said, one of the regular entries could very well be a clown car and then we'd end up with multiple clown cars.

Originally Posted by miatanut

Minimum weights is a biggie. Originally they were created to keep teams from making cars so light and fragile the driver had no chance in a crash. Now, there is fairly decent crash testing, so the minimum weight approach has outlived its usefulness. You can't have a "half the weight" concept if the rules specify the minimum weight.

Ok, then why not bring back LMP675 and allow open competition? It's not like we have not been down this road before in recent years.

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Your idea of a "conventional sportscar" is only a creation of the current rulebook. If the Oreca 03 raced at Le Mans in 1959, the purists would have been coming out with the same stuff.

At least an argument could be made that an Oreca is a "prototype" of future cars. Obviously that would be a bit of a joke of a statement now with front bumper compatibility for pedestrians and stuff like that, but at least it has the footprint of something like a street car. The Wang? Not so much. If we want to stretch the definition of "sports cars," why not just allow F1 or other single seater type cars run at Le Mans? It's not like carving out a half of a second seat or whatever else counts as there being two seats by the ACO would be difficult with something like an Indycar that is built to be a bit husky for ovals.

Originally Posted by the real Stig

I believe DW are getting a very large grant from the government under the curtain of alternative/green energy. Anyone remember Delorean?
Expect a Delorean style flop or regular front suspension in the next 4 months.

I have not heard anything about that, but I would not be surprised if Panoz and company try to get government grants for this thing.

Originally Posted by joeb

Mr. Bear tweeted that Ford turned down the chance for the Delta Wing to use their engine, so Nissan is lending them one.

Ha. At least the industry knows a loser when they see one even if Panoz and the ACO seem to think otherwise.

[Speed-King]

Ha. At least the industry knows a loser when they see one even if Panoz and the ACO seem to think otherwise.

That's why the industry has turned down Panoz...

(I think the ACO is only in it to make the Don happy, they really don't have too much to lose here...)

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by AGD

Ok, then why not bring back LMP675 and allow open competition? It's not like we have not been down this road before in recent years.

How about because they are targeting 475Kg and if you throw almost 50% of the car's weight on it in ballast the concept won't work anymore?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by miatanut

How about because they are targeting 475Kg and if you throw almost 50% of the car's weight on it in ballast the concept won't work anymore?

Ok, LMP475 then. Having said that, I don't want to see Indycar-like "sports cars" so I'm not sure if I'd be in favor of a class like that. Just bring back LMP675 and the Wang can go play along in some spec SCCA class somewhere. Oh, and bring back the V12s, V10s, and big V8s while we're at it.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by AGD

Ok, LMP475 then. Having said that, I don't want to see Indycar-like "sports cars" so I'm not sure if I'd be in favor of a class like that. Just bring back LMP675 and the Wang can go play along in some spec SCCA class somewhere. Oh, and bring back the V12s, V10s, and big V8s while we're at it.

I'd say dump the minimum weights altogether. Specify the maximum kilojoules to go the distance and run V12's, V2's, gas, diesel, hydrogen, electric, compressed air, whatever the heck you want.

[davehenrie]

I say just go back to 2008 when the ALMS P2 Porsche Spyder & Acura ARX-01b went toe to toe with P1 cars.

[lemansfan]

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-9470.html

First Driver for the DW is confirmed .

[Robbo28]

Originally Posted by lemansfan

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-9470.html

First Driver for the DW is confirmed .

That was confirmed at the Le Mans entry announcement!

Bit of step backwards: Peugeot to DW!

[lms]

Originally Posted by Robbo28

Bit of step backwards: Peugeot to DW!

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Robbo28

Bit of step backwards: Peugeot to DW!

Only until the DW turns a wheel on the Le Mans circuit, then DW is surely better than Peugeot?

[Tim the Grey]

Touche...

[Graham Goodwin]

"It's not like the ACO created an extra grid spot for the Wang. It's taking one of the normal spots from last year. Yes, the 56th garage idea has been around for a few years now, but I don't really see the point of needing it this year when the two mega heavyweights of ACO style racing are bringing fancy hybrid systems that will compete for the overall win. That is a more intriguing story line and the technology is more relevant to street cars."

It was repeatedly made very clear by the ACO that the 56th slot would be for a new tech vehicle - Those sorts of programmes take time (ask Hope Racing!!) so it was no surprise that a more normal car took the slot last year (but, as far as I know only because the Hope Flybrid had already been accepted for the ILMC)

The very fact that, in recent years we have seen TDI, Biofuels and various hybrid solutions employed by the OEMs shows that this is a very sensible furrow to plough in the current climate. Will it always be a success? - almost inevitably not - but if it is then things may change for the better.

Why continue with the concept when there will be hybrids on the grid in 2012? Well maybe, just maybe there might be something better round the corner! Again that's surely the point.

The level of hostility towards this programme is really quite extraordinary - I can understand that people may have doubts about the car's dynamic capabilities, styling, concept etc and on some or all of it you may be correct - But consider this point for a moment - If every time someone attempted something radical they folded at the first cry of "It'll never work!" Where would we be.

Look at it this way - If it does work then everyone who said that it never could will be wrong - and that surely is the whole point! If you're right and they are wrong then congratulations, but the ill will towards the attempt is beginning to get pretty tiresome.

In addition, few (if any) programmes of note are not happening because Deltawing IS happening - It is keeping good, clever and able people in employment at a very tricky time.

Highcroft didn't have a budget for racing before Deltawing remember, and as for Panoz are you REALLY telling me you'd rather he spent the money on the Abruzzi?

As for myself - I have no problem whatsoever with this project being given the opportunity to prove itself - and will have little difficulty either with another group stepping up to the plate with something else next year either - Things change for the better because people challenge the norm - In an era where spec racing is ever more the norm it takes bravery from the regulators and the teams involved to try to break the mould - Good luck to all of them I say.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

as for Panoz are you REALLY telling me you'd rather he spent the money on the Abruzzi?

Yes, if he had actually made sure that the Abruzzi could've been homologated for GT2 at some point. The car was actually capable of doing somewhat respectable lap times at Mosport last year.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes, if he had actually made sure that the Abruzzi could've been homologated for GT2 at some point. The car was actually capable of doing somewhat respectable lap times at Mosport last year.

But he didn't, and lets face it if there had been any commercial basis for doing so then he would have.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

"It's not like the ACO created an extra grid spot for the Wang. It's taking one of the normal spots from last year. Yes, the 56th garage idea has been around for a few years now, but I don't really see the point of needing it this year when the two mega heavyweights of ACO style racing are bringing fancy hybrid systems that will compete for the overall win. That is a more intriguing story line and the technology is more relevant to street cars."

It was repeatedly made very clear by the ACO that the 56th slot would be for a new tech vehicle - Those sorts of programmes take time (ask Hope Racing!!) so it was no surprise that a more normal car took the slot last year (but, as far as I know only because the Hope Flybrid had already been accepted for the ILMC)

The very fact that, in recent years we have seen TDI, Biofuels and various hybrid solutions employed by the OEMs shows that this is a very sensible furrow to plough in the current climate. Will it always be a success? - almost inevitably not - but if it is then things may change for the better.

Why continue with the concept when there will be hybrids on the grid in 2012? Well maybe, just maybe there might be something better round the corner! Again that's surely the point.

The level of hostility towards this programme is really quite extraordinary - I can understand that people may have doubts about the car's dynamic capabilities, styling, concept etc and on some or all of it you may be correct - But consider this point for a moment - If every time someone attempted something radical they folded at the first cry of "It'll never work!" Where would we be.

Look at it this way - If it does work then everyone who said that it never could will be wrong - and that surely is the whole point! If you're right and they are wrong then congratulations, but the ill will towards the attempt is beginning to get pretty tiresome.

In addition, few (if any) programmes of note are not happening because Deltawing IS happening - It is keeping good, clever and able people in employment at a very tricky time.

Highcroft didn't have a budget for racing before Deltawing remember, and as for Panoz are you REALLY telling me you'd rather he spent the money on the Abruzzi?

As for myself - I have no problem whatsoever with this project being given the opportunity to prove itself - and will have little difficulty either with another group stepping up to the plate with something else next year either - Things change for the better because people challenge the norm - In an era where spec racing is ever more the norm it takes bravery from the regulators and the teams involved to try to break the mould - Good luck to all of them I say.

Thread closed, it has peaked with this post!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Look at it this way - If it does work then everyone who said that it never could will be wrong - and that surely is the whole point! If you're right and they are wrong then congratulations, but the ill will towards the attempt is beginning to get pretty tiresome.....

As for myself - I have no problem whatsoever with this project being given the opportunity to prove itself - and will have little difficulty either with another group stepping up to the plate with something else next year either - Things change for the better because people challenge the norm - In an era where spec racing is ever more the norm it takes bravery from the regulators and the teams involved to try to break the mould - Good luck to all of them I say.

As one who isn't particularly enamoured, I nevertheless agree with your 'give it a chance' sentiments. But I don't accept it as a change for the better - not yet anyway - for the simple (perhaps naive or even stupid) reason that the last thing I want is to see a grid full of DWs at Le Mans. If the technology is successful and can be delivered in a real sportscar (and yes, I use the term advisedly, as that's as much in the eye of the beholder as the beauty of a GTOne or a 962), then that's fine by me - as long as it sounds like a real sportscar (sorry, but I do still have some scruples..... ).

[Fogelhund]

I am not particularly enamoured by the Delta Wing. I didn't like the Abruzzi either. At this point, Panoz's series needs entries in the LMP1 category. I'd rather they built some new LMP1 cars, or used the money for appearance money, or prize money.

A full season two car Highcroft Panoz would be more interesting... I don't really care if it was really a Riley LMP1 design, but an all American Chassis/engine running in the series would be something everybody could be excited about, would have been very marketable, and helped the ALMS a great deal.

Ok, so now we have an engineering exercise, to prove something works. Ok, so if it works... then what? Are they going to add a spec class of these guys to the ALMS? Really? I mean either it is going to be a spec class, or a one off attempt to prove the concept works. Panoz isn't investing money just for a vanity project. He wants a spec class, at least that is my opinion. Otherwise, it's a project to prove it works, and then bin it once it does... and that would be the most colossal waste of money.

So, if it fails, it is a laughable failed project. If it succeeds, it is a laughable spec category. Ok, a bit judgemental. Let's see a raise in hands of people who would like to see the LMP-DW spec category at LM, or in the ALMS?