Three definitive races

[Mattracer]

Being nine years since Senna's death, if someone who didn't know about F1 or Senna asked "just who was he?" and you had to show 3 races of his career, what would they be?

For me:

Monaco '84

Portugal '85

Donnington '93


It's hard to keep it at three- there's so many more!

[Lee Janotta]

Yeah, those'd be a good three. All in the wet, though.

It's hard to imagine that before Senna and Bellof showed up in '84, PROST was regarded as a wet-weather ace!

[Mr V]

There is the flip side of course...

Japan 1990

Australia 1992

[krt917]

Yes, to be trully representative, you'd have to have one of his wet weather wins ('85 Estoril seems as good as any), one of his dices with Nige or Alain (perhaps '89 Hungary!!), and one demonstration of his apalling on-track ethics. Circle one of the following:
1988 Portuguese GP
1990 Brazilian GP (not so much bad ehtics as assuming that backmarkers should not be on the track when he was around)
1990 Japanese GP
1992 Australia GP.

PS. I am not anti-Senna. He was a great driver, but I feel both sides of the story should be remembered.

[BootsOntheSide]

To show his good side, maybe Monaco 1984 (a truly sensational driver that exposed him to the world), Donington 1993 (pure genius - no one else could've done anything like that), and Japan 1988, a great fight through the field even if the car was superior, capped with a great move on Prost.

The bad side - Suzuka 1990 (and his subsequent words of intial denial and later admission), Brazil 1994 for a rare mistake (although the car was supposedly a nightmare to drive), and Australia 1992 where he was too aggressive on Mansell.

[Yoong Montoya]

I would choose:

Estoril '85 (his first victory with a brilliant drive in the wet)

Suzuka '88 (when he won his first WDC with a Hockenheim 2000-esque charge from the back of the field)

Suzuka '90 (he was more ruthless than Schumacher and this act was disgraceful, ramming Prost off at 180mph at T1 )

I feel that these three sum Senna up best. A great driver, but also one who would do worse things than Schumacher to win.

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Yeah, those'd be a good three. All in the wet, though.

It's hard to imagine that before Senna and Bellof showed up in '84, PROST was regarded as a wet-weather ace!

Why was Prost so poor in the rain compared to Senna? Even Damon Hill was a good wet-weather driver compared with Michael Schumacher. Was Prost too cautious or something?:confused:

[krt917]

Basically, I think Alain was a bit too clever and imaginative! He wasn't that bad in his early days, but he matured faster and to a greater extent than most drivers. I think it is easy to forget, when comparing Senna and Prost, that Alain was really at a different point in his career when he was racing Senna at his best. He just didn't want to take the same risks. After Senna nudged him towards the wall at Estoril in '88, Prost said something along the lines of "if this is what we have to do to win the world title then I don't want it".

In the wet, this attitude was more obvious, though I do remember the odd decent drive in slippery conditions, such as Spain in 1991.

[Logrence]

I think in years to come the first three races of this year will be definitive races in the history of F1...no really!

There's talk now of the results for the first 3 GPs being annulled...:confused:

[Mattracer]

On what basis would the first 3 races be anulled?

[Lee Janotta]

Michael didn't win them.

Prost was a good driver... 4-time champion... But he never had the best car control, the fastest hands, the best feel... He used his brain to get him further along in racing than his (albeit extensive) natural talent would take him.

Senna, on the other hand, took to it literally like a duck to water. There are just a couple guys with such incredible ability to be both comfortable and fast at the ragged edge: Bernd Rosemeyer, Ronnie Peterson, and Stefan Bellof are the only ones I can't think of right off the top of my head. Probably all three would be rally drivers if they were coming up today!

That's the way Senna attacked every course, and when the heavens opened and soaked the track, he didn't worry as Prost did about danger, or wing adjustments... He just drove the car as hard as he could until it got squirrely... And then he pushed a little harder still.

That first lap at Donnington '93 looks deceptively smooth... Senna was fighting that car, opposite-locking through corners, threshold braking with incredible precision... The man's car control was just unearthly, and he'd have been great no matter what sort of 4-wheeled competition he engaged in.

And for those PO'd over Suzuka '90... It was payback for '89, Prost opened up that feud.

[Mattracer]

Very well said, Lee Janotta...

[racer69]

Prost's involvement in Pironi accident at Hockenheim (though entirely not his fault) during the wet practice session played on his mind thereafter

[krt917]

Lee Janotta, please don't try and compare Suzuka '89 to '90. In 1989, Prost was just fed up with being bullied and barged out the way, so he decided to make life difficult. He said as much before the race and Senna still came from a long way back. Suzuka '90 was a pre-meditated high-speed accident which should have seen Ayrton stripped of his title, much as I hope would have happened had Michael's 'move' on Jacques at Jerez worked.

Ayrton was a genius behind the wheel, no doubt about it, but like so many greats, he was a flawed one.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by krt917
so he decided to make life difficult.

Make life difficult? He tried to take both cars out at the chicane!

And when that didn't work, he called in a political favor from the FISA, just as he did at Monaco in '84 to get the race stopped a lap before he was overtaken by two rookies in the worst cars on the grid.

[golem]

Lee, how the hell could you forget the natural talent that was Clark? (Slaps LJ about rapidly) I heard he didn't know all that much about cars and racing compared to his contemporaries, but he new how to drive, he new how to slipstream his lower powered Lotus behind a ferrari and then massacre it in bends. He could drift the car. That'd be awesome to watch. An F1 car drifting around little more than a mountain road in germany...

[krt917]

Absolutely golem.

Lee, Prost's move wasn't good, nor was all the wrangling after the race and Ayrton's disqualification. My point is that this sort of thing was Senna's APPROACH to racing, particularly with Prost. Alain's move, whilst I don't support it, was understandable in that it was a response to Ayrton's driving. I still don't think that he aimed to take Ayrton out, more that he just didn't care as much as usual whether he did or not.

Whatever you think of that incident, you cannot deny that Senna's track ethics were CONSIDERABLY more dubious than Prost's.

[Mattracer]

Prost prbably knew that Senna would have got past him eventually, so he quite cleverly finished it a bit earlier and to his advantage.

1990 was ugly and disappointing, but paybacks are double...

Not good endings to either season, but the racing for the rest of both years was great.

[Shoe-maker]

Portugal 1985

Japan 1988

Japan 1989

The skill in the wet, the desire, the agrression, the controversy and the will to win are all in there and the unflinching belief that he was the best.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by golem
Lee, how the hell could you forget the natural talent that was Clark? (Slaps LJ about rapidly) I heard he didn't know all that much about cars and racing compared to his contemporaries, but he new how to drive, he new how to slipstream his lower powered Lotus behind a ferrari and then massacre it in bends. He could drift the car. That'd be awesome to watch. An F1 car drifting around little more than a mountain road in germany...

Ow!

I have enormous respect for Jim Clark... I've just not seen enough of his driving to really understand _how_ he did it.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by krt917
Whatever you think of that incident, you cannot deny that Senna's track ethics were CONSIDERABLY more dubious than Prost's.

Well, I firmly believe Prost's was a deliberate move to take both McLarens out of the race.

True, Senna's move in '90 was a lot more dangerous, but there's probably a lot that happened off-track that was only hinted at in the press. Racing was very political for Prost, and that must have frustrated Senna to no end.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by mr v
There is the flip side of course...

Japan 1990

Australia 1992

As well as all those wonderful victories you have to add Japan 1990. Although the situation is rather complex and a lot of background is needed.

However, I'm not sure what if you meant this, but Australia 1992 wan't the same. Senna just messed up.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well, I firmly believe Prost's was a deliberate move to take both McLarens out of the race.

Nah! I don't think so. Senna came from a long long way back, I think Prost just didn't see him. Prost has said as much too and I beleive him.

Not that this calmed Senna down, afterall he got disqualified later from the race and for this I reckon he probably blamed a different Frenchman. One of the factors that lead up to a more purposeful crash in Japan 1990.

[Adam43]

Anyway threee races.

Portugal 1985
Monaco 1988 (a mistake, but a better driver afterwards)
Japan 1990

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Senna fan even though I've listed two bad and one good race (I just think they sum up Senna best). There are, of course, many many great wins that define him.

If I may, can I add any qualifying session at Monaco. Wow.