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Old 6 Mar 2017, 08:19 (Ref:3716809)   #1
GHOGH
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NZ Tintop future?2017-->

I thought this subject (NZ tintop future) would have been a red hot rugby ball being booted around in this forum.

http://www.velocitynews.co.nz/news.php?id=1339 (tintop future)

(aside) Judging by the crowd numbers in for the Mad Mike summer bash I would suggest the future might include some type of drift element. (Though will the on-circuit crowd need to be issued with gas masks to comply with H & S because of the tyre smoke?)

qu- Do the current NZ touring teams want to race little rice rockets (AP4 type)at some stage in the future?

qu- With so many SUV/double cab ute type vehicles on NZ roads, would NZ's tin top sprint race class be optimally represented by a race vehicle similar to the 'Super Ute' category in development in Australia, so a continued trans-tasman ute class can remain? A pathway for the Ssangyong drivers wanting to move to another ute class etc.

qu- Would it more sensible to just to have the GT3s (as the tin top V8 Falcons and Commodores -bodyshell and space frame- age) ?
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 20:18 (Ref:3716922)   #2
Icarus_nz
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Icarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridIcarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Where you do even begin on this subject?

Before leaping to possible 'solutions' I believe it is necessary to ask some pretty fundamental questions first and establish the terms of reference.

Firstly it is critical to realise that this discussion is about what would constitute "Premier Classes" i.e. Classes worth of crowning NZ Champions from.
Implicit in that is ensuring some form of development pathway.



There will always be tensions between what competitors want to race, what competitors can afford to race, what is of interest to commercial partners and finally what is of interest to the viewers.

What competitors want to race is complex. It seems that kiwis love to tinker in their sheds and employ their singular brilliance to compensate for a limited budget. It’s about getting a group of people around you and having a crack.

These people love freedoms.

Unfortunately they are the same people who cry when someone with more resources beats them by being able to better exploit the same freedoms.
It can lead to lesser drivers with a bigger ‘toolbox’ getting crowned. Is this a problem? Not for me to say



Control class racing develops drivers. No question.
But less skilled drivers and teams with the wrong approach rapidly become discouraged.

The viewing public don’t help here. Less than a podium and you’re a w**nker.

TRS this season for example often had the whole field of 20 cars covered by less than 1 sec. In the mid pack 0.2 sec was the difference between 18th and 8th at times.
Hard to call a guy 0.5 sec off pole a w**nker. In a ‘soft’ class he’d look like a star.

The public (apparently) want to see passing. The ‘purist’ public want to see passes earned.
The purists are in the minority so we end up with a situation where many passes are due to massive performance differences.


What do commercial partners want?
Who would know? Usually we just take their money and run…

Actually in this era, what they want it a buzz, lots of ‘clicks’ and exposure.
TV is still King but who is paying?

Where are the celebrities of the sport?

Next time you go to a race meeting, look at the amount of people it takes to simply run the event.
No wonder promotors seem to cover their costs off the competitor (and associated bodies), spectators are a bonus.

To attend an event for a spectator requires quite a commitment in terms of time.
So what makes for a good day out? That alone is worthy of discussion.

Who are we aiming at? There are plenty of folks who enjoy re-living the yesteryears but that is not what Premier classes are about.
Whilst I agree that we must learn from the past to prevent the mistakes of tomorrow, I also believe that the past is no template for now or the future. These are different times.

The recent past was a disaster due to naked, vested self-interest.

No one is blameless in this and I’m not sure that any of those involved really should have a say in where we go from here.

Discuss.
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 23:48 (Ref:3716951)   #3
GHOGH
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Good reply Icarus_NZ
I just threw up a quick post last night to get the wheel rolling.

I_NZ, I interpreted your reply as semi-Zen, which is appropriate as any recreational energy resource use activity is likely to be highly scrutinised in the years ahead. How many NZ race circuits have solar installations?
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 23:09 (Ref:3717360)   #4
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my 2cents

Our premier classes need to cover a few bases - Single Seater, Touring Cars, OneMake, Development

I for one believe touring cars should be that, cars from the showroom floor suitably modified for competition, base them on real cars, that's the class for the good old kiwi tinkerers and some with big engineering budgets, it allows sub classes based on minimum weights or engine capacity or induction type.

If you want to go down the Supertourer/TLX/AP4/Spaceframed single chassis lookalike cars then so be it, but these are not touring cars, they should bee seen as OneMake classes. Each year or two allow evolution of the chassis and or engine.

Single Seater - TRS is going ok, could probably continue for a little while, but it would be nice to see something bigger and faster.

Development - Ssangyong utes seems to be working well. Keep it coming and again perhaps every year or two allow an upgrade to engine or suspension/brake packages. These current utes are a few years in now, so I wonder what the succession plan is for when they are a bit long in the tooth? Is there a newer Ssangyong ute coming out?
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 23:59 (Ref:3717378)   #5
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Ssangyong (in Korea) is 70 percent owned by Mahindra.
There is likely a new ute of some description on its way. This is a UK article, what the NZ market receives might differ.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ssangyo...sports-in-2018
Probably a phasing in of a new ute, rather than expecting the entire field to changeover, might be the next step.
TC. A few recent crashes in 2k Cup show how damaging relatively minor crashes are to production based vehicles.
https://youtu.be/mxK1l2kFa4A (Crash)
https://youtu.be/K-ItAZp38iw?t=3m39s

Looking at other track series - some of the (production shell based) drift vehicles are extensively modified to aid crash repairs, some of the (production shell based) time attack cars are also extensively modified for lightening and strauctural rigidity etc.
The South African 'touring car' series is a Pace (Australia) spaceframe, (similar to the Marc Focus size), Albins transaxle with 2 litre turbo engine (from manufacturer) and has attracted a few brands to their series.
http://www.motorsportmedia.co.za/article.asp?conID=111

What is likely to be best for NZ in the future?
I would like to see something similar to the old Shell Sport cars but with updated rules for current day cars. Allow front drive to be converted to rear drive, transverse engines converted to longtitudinal engines etc.
No super minis so the standard bodyshell has a larger crumple zones.
A variety of engines (v6, turbo4, v8, flat4s) but V8s (coyote, LS) evened with emu unit/ power/ torque curve parity.

Last edited by GHOGH; 9 Mar 2017 at 00:22.
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 00:35 (Ref:3717382)   #6
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To be fair both of those crashes were in amateur level cars with one having only a half cage in it. A production based touring car would have to have a full strut to strut cage much like group N rally cars, this would make them a lot stronger.
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 04:17 (Ref:3717417)   #7
GHOGH
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Maybe these examples of NZ track crashes are more appropriate.
https://youtu.be/ewftsrK3FLQ (Angus Fogg - Highlands V8 Super Tourers)
https://youtu.be/d0m84YD2eB8 (Wiggs Porsche crash - Teretonga)
https://youtu.be/DeI3x8zW_Cg (86 race crash Pukekohe 2016)

A mainly a visual display that NZ circuits can be quite fast in places and have relatively high energy crashes or awkward crashes into track hardware so safety might be a fairly important consideration if you want a 'fast' touring car class.
https://youtu.be/64VcTE4Ox3Q?t=14m51s (TCR Asia - Thailand)not a lot of viewrship on youtube - need some long anti-lag turbo flames

Another consideration is the TCR class. Like the TRS attracting top potential talent for the single seaters. Maybe NZ could attract top young touring car talent for a few races over summer, talent that is backed by sponsors or the deep pocketed Euro/ Asian types(for a few grid places) who want to stay race fit in their off season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCR_International_Series

Brief description of the Marc cars.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...-focus-v8.html (Marc cars)

Last edited by GHOGH; 9 Mar 2017 at 04:44.
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Old 10 Mar 2017, 04:43 (Ref:3717678)   #8
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Run a classic touring car series, like the Otago classic rally (new and older cars at the same time)
http://www.velocitynews.co.nz/news.php?id=1395 (The Rat's Pug 406)

http://tcr-series.com/pdf/2017_TCR_I...2017_01_28.pdf (TCR rule outline)
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Old 10 Mar 2017, 09:20 (Ref:3717723)   #9
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socram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsocram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Great to see this thread.

Personally, I wouldn't cross the road to see small grids, one make series or utes.

Touring cars are just one class at a race meeting, so they have to have back up with other good grids.

I grew up watching different classes sharing the track, even when the track limit was just 14 cars, but due to the small track size, there was usually something to look at. Empty track is a big no-no in my book. When racing is close and it is a small grid, unless it is a track where visibility is good, not a lot of spectator interest.

I'd rather see a top touring car class, preferably with different looking cars, sharing the track with another competitive class, to make a 30+ car grid. The top level needs to be dramatic and fairly noisy and a bit of slip and slide wouldn't go amiss. I have huge respect for the car control of the drifters, but am not exactly hooked on the clouds of burning rubber. Somewhere between cornering on rails and full out drifting gives a real spectacle.

Support classes, also need decent sized grids and again, if they are also split into sub classes, so much the better. That means more diversity at a meeting. Bigger fields means lower entry fees (or should!) and still give decent profits for promoters. A classic class of some sort is essential for premier meetings too, to enhance the diversity and it doesn't have to be the same classes at every premier meeting either.

So I agree with Bitsa7. We need to look way beyond just one class.
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Old 10 Mar 2017, 12:36 (Ref:3717755)   #10
Mark Petch
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
Where you do even begin on this subject?

Before leaping to possible 'solutions' I believe it is necessary to ask some pretty fundamental questions first and establish the terms of reference.

Firstly it is critical to realise that this discussion is about what would constitute "Premier Classes" i.e. Classes worth of crowning NZ Champions from.
Implicit in that is ensuring some form of development pathway.



There will always be tensions between what competitors want to race, what competitors can afford to race, what is of interest to commercial partners and finally what is of interest to the viewers.

What competitors want to race is complex. It seems that kiwis love to tinker in their sheds and employ their singular brilliance to compensate for a limited budget. It’s about getting a group of people around you and having a crack.

These people love freedoms.

Unfortunately they are the same people who cry when someone with more resources beats them by being able to better exploit the same freedoms.
It can lead to lesser drivers with a bigger ‘toolbox’ getting crowned. Is this a problem? Not for me to say



Control class racing develops drivers. No question.
But less skilled drivers and teams with the wrong approach rapidly become discouraged.

The viewing public don’t help here. Less than a podium and you’re a w**nker.

TRS this season for example often had the whole field of 20 cars covered by less than 1 sec. In the mid pack 0.2 sec was the difference between 18th and 8th at times.
Hard to call a guy 0.5 sec off pole a w**nker. In a ‘soft’ class he’d look like a star.

The public (apparently) want to see passing. The ‘purist’ public want to see passes earned.
The purists are in the minority so we end up with a situation where many passes are due to massive performance differences.


What do commercial partners want?
Who would know? Usually we just take their money and run…

Actually in this era, what they want it a buzz, lots of ‘clicks’ and exposure.
TV is still King but who is paying?

Where are the celebrities of the sport?

Next time you go to a race meeting, look at the amount of people it takes to simply run the event.
No wonder promotors seem to cover their costs off the competitor (and associated bodies), spectators are a bonus.

To attend an event for a spectator requires quite a commitment in terms of time.
So what makes for a good day out? That alone is worthy of discussion.

Who are we aiming at? There are plenty of folks who enjoy re-living the yesteryears but that is not what Premier classes are about.
Whilst I agree that we must learn from the past to prevent the mistakes of tomorrow, I also believe that the past is no template for now or the future. These are different times.

The recent past was a disaster due to naked, vested self-interest.

No one is blameless in this and I’m not sure that any of those involved really should have a say in where we go from here.

Discuss.
Good post as usual Icarus,

Control class racing develops drivers. No question.
But less skilled drivers and teams with the wrong approach rapidly become discouraged.


In reflection, aside from being undermined by MSNZ, what you espouse is why so many V8St cars are sitting in 'sheds' because the drivers with less skills etc ultimately become discouraged.

Without naming names several of those drivers/Dad's have instead spent some rather serious amounts of money modifying their V8ST's to go Endurance racing, and or GT1 racing, however, despite more BHP and or areo, not one of them have ever got within Scott McLaughlin time of 1minute 2.8 second V8ST qualifying lap at Hampton Downs 4 years ago, or SVG' 1 minute 3.6 second V8ST qualifying lap at Pukekohe 3 years ago.

The point being they lack the ultimate skill to compete against the best or even the next rung down from these two hugely talented Tin-Top drivers, so, discouraged they seek a class with freedoms or pack up and seek greener pastures like the V8 Ute, or 86 Series etc.

Ironically I see exactly the same thing happening in our Ssangyong Actyon Sport Ute series, driver's/Dad's being discouraged because in truth the steerer lacks the skill to be at the front on a consistent basis, so they walk away, and in some case from the sport itself because its been a rude awakening that they lack the skill required to race at the top in a strictly controlled one make race series.

I am not short on idea's to improve Premier categories but I ask were does the money come from? Its a user pays society we live in and thats never more the case than in motor racing.

As far as the Ssangyong SRS utes are concerned we have committed to a 4th season, 2017/18, but thats it for the brand as we have achieved what we set out to do from the brand point of view and continue to have lot of fun doing so to I might add.

GT endurance racing needs to mature in this country and that means new category management and TV exposure and that will come within the next couple of years as the success of the Bathurst 12 hour creates more and more public and sponsor interest in that category, however, it comes at great cost so its never going to become mainstream in the domestic sense here in NZ. Two big Australian GT events here a year is realistically all we can aspire to, at least in my opinion.
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 00:16 (Ref:3717918)   #11
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The Brit-car classification method
http://www.britcar-endurance.com/classification.php

NZers are mostly too individualistic to attempt to put them all in the same 'shopping trolley'
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 17:32 (Ref:3718029)   #12
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The Brit-car classification method
http://www.britcar-endurance.com/classification.php

NZers are mostly too individualistic to attempt to put them all in the same 'shopping trolley'

True GHOGH, there is also not enough of us either to make matters worse, despite the increase in population, most of the new Asian immigrants have no culture of motor racing, and no interest either except a handfull in drifting and street racing!

Endurance racing makes no commercial sense at the moment but its growing because of our individualistic nature as you have already said, and I think thats a good summary of the difficulty in marshalling a Premier Racing Series, many of us don't like the autocratic , way MSNZ runs the national Championship, which also burns both competitors and sponsors alike.

At the moment the Endurance Series is free of Autocratic officials and thats also part of the attraction at least for me.

Despite the strength of grass roots racing at the moment, like 2K cup, BMW series, Honda, Ssangyong etc, most of these competitors lack the financial resources to go further than that, yes, most would like the chance but how many will ever get the opportunity? Sadly very few, which is why we only have had 3 in Kiwi drivers at most in TRS in the last few years. Very sad actually.


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Old 11 Mar 2017, 18:25 (Ref:3718040)   #13
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TCR isn't cheaper compared to current cars.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 00:27 (Ref:3718284)   #14
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GHOGH - since you are the OP I guess you're the best person to ask.
When you reference 'Premier Race Category', what does that mean to you?

Are you talking about 'a really good race meeting to attend', or a meeting that showcases the highest level of achievement in the sport and worthy of a Championship title at the end of it?

I'm not trolling, I'm just not sure where your posts are aiming.


The traditional format in terms of championship classes has been:
* A starter single-seater category (Currently FF)
* A bigger, faster singer seater category useful as a stepping stone to the big world (currently TRS)
* An entry level one make series (Think Mini's, Suzuki Swift currently Saang-Yong)
* A bigger, faster one make series (Think GT3, currently TR86 I guess)
* A big, fast, noisy saloon class (Currently V8 Touring what-evers)

This has always been (loosely) the structure. In any given year you can normally fit everything into this format give or take the odd extra saloon class or two
It provides a framework whereby, in theory, ability can be recognised and developed.
Interest and participation in the various classes ebbs and flows with the state of the economy; this is money-sport after all :-)

Given the amount of NZ talent on the world stage, you'd have to admit that despite everything, we are doing something right.

Simply wishing for different classes won't necessarily achieve much.
A faster single seater than TRS? I don't think you're paying attention to how efficient they already are!

Production based saloons? Sorry to tell you but to build a proper fast one these days would cost more than a purpose built car. The people who really know what they're doing would produce rocket ships and the rest would flounder around the back and lose heart.
There is too much knowledge out there in the world now. That genie won't go back in the bottle.

The competitors that turn up year after year are the sport's greatest asset.

There has to be buy-in from the people who need to produce the $$$ to invest in new machinery.

Everyone is excited about the whole GT thing at the moment but that could all blow up pretty quickly. Every year someone spends large to get a leg up.
Is the economy strong enough to support that?
I don't think so. You're seeing a good size 'ego' spend at present but the point will come when the cheque books get thrown in the different direction.
Buying a 500K car and finding 3 years later it is uncompetitive is a bitter pill.

Look, big grids can make average racing look good.
A small grid with a spectacular battle is worth the price of admission.
Do we want to buy into the FIA idea of ever chasing down the technology rabbit hole?

I think not.
We are very fortunate to have multiple race tracks and an easy pathway into the sport
We need classes that provide best cost per lap for performance by level.

To get good racing, champion the correct attitudes to work on your own efforts. Keep everything simple.

People, knowledge, organisation. Stop wasting your precious resources ($$ and time)
Stop with the accusations of cheating and start working smarter yourself.

And when you win something, you'll know you earned it

But spread the love a little. Beating the opposition can be zero sum and soon there is no-one to left to race. Encourage the other competitors.
Its quite a juggling act.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 08:28 (Ref:3718331)   #15
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
GHOGH - since you are the OP I guess you're the best person to ask.
When you reference 'Premier Race Category', what does that mean to you?

Are you talking about 'a really good race meeting to attend', or a meeting that showcases the highest level of achievement in the sport and worthy of a Championship title at the end of it?

I'm not trolling, I'm just not sure where your posts are aiming.


The traditional format in terms of championship classes has been:
* A starter single-seater category (Currently FF)
* A bigger, faster singer seater category useful as a stepping stone to the big world (currently TRS)
* An entry level one make series (Think Mini's, Suzuki Swift currently Saang-Yong)
* A bigger, faster one make series (Think GT3, currently TR86 I guess)
* A big, fast, noisy saloon class (Currently V8 Touring what-evers)

This has always been (loosely) the structure. In any given year you can normally fit everything into this format give or take the odd extra saloon class or two
It provides a framework whereby, in theory, ability can be recognised and developed.
Interest and participation in the various classes ebbs and flows with the state of the economy; this is money-sport after all :-)

Given the amount of NZ talent on the world stage, you'd have to admit that despite everything, we are doing something right.

Simply wishing for different classes won't necessarily achieve much.
A faster single seater than TRS? I don't think you're paying attention to how efficient they already are!

Production based saloons? Sorry to tell you but to build a proper fast one these days would cost more than a purpose built car. The people who really know what they're doing would produce rocket ships and the rest would flounder around the back and lose heart.
There is too much knowledge out there in the world now. That genie won't go back in the bottle.

The competitors that turn up year after year are the sport's greatest asset.

There has to be buy-in from the people who need to produce the $$$ to invest in new machinery.

Everyone is excited about the whole GT thing at the moment but that could all blow up pretty quickly. Every year someone spends large to get a leg up.
Is the economy strong enough to support that?
I don't think so. You're seeing a good size 'ego' spend at present but the point will come when the cheque books get thrown in the different direction.
Buying a 500K car and finding 3 years later it is uncompetitive is a bitter pill.


Look, big grids can make average racing look good.
A small grid with a spectacular battle is worth the price of admission.
Do we want to buy into the FIA idea of ever chasing down the technology rabbit hole?

I think not.
We are very fortunate to have multiple race tracks and an easy pathway into the sport
We need classes that provide best cost per lap for performance by level.

To get good racing, champion the correct attitudes to work on your own efforts. Keep everything simple.

People, knowledge, organisation. Stop wasting your precious resources ($$ and time)
Stop with the accusations of cheating and start working smarter yourself.

And when you win something, you'll know you earned it

But spread the love a little. Beating the opposition can be zero sum and soon there is no-one to left to race. Encourage the other competitors.
Its quite a juggling act.
Icarus, I agree with your entire post including the paragraph in Bold even though it may be aimed at me, but I am OK with that, and hey if in 3 years time its uncompetitive so be it its still a bloody nice piece of kit to own.

.
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