Maximum Age...

[expert]

I'm just curious about what's everybody here's opinion on this one: what's the maximum age of a driver to still reach F1... These days drivers are getting younger and younger and younger (e.g. Nico Rosberg (17) gets he's first test a few days from now).

Does it mean that every driver older than 25 should forget about F1, when he's not -at least- half way the ladder by now?

[NiceGuyEddie]

Its just a question of demand and offer. When young talent is swerming all over the place, they will be replacing other drivers like there is no tomorrow. The first ones that'll be axed are the ones that had their shot but failed to make an impression. Teambosses tend to look elsewhere anyway when that happens. So in my opinion, you look at careers and see where it got them. If it got them nowhere, than it should be bye bye. There are drivers over 30 that can teach a pubescent talent one or two things.

On the other hand I do think experience is overrated in modernday F1. Debutants tend to learn the tricks of the trade extremly quick. Experiencewise, Ralf never had anything on Montoya. Same can be said on Coulthard in comparison to Raikkonen.

[expert]

NiceGuyEddie, agreed that Ralf and David were nowhere near Kimi and Juan, but I can't remember either of them being spectacular in karts (or other junior formulae), IMO Ralf is lousy and David a good pro but nothing more, whereas Monty and Raikkonen were spectacular all the way in there junior career.

But the question is: if Monty and Kimi started off at, let's say 23 years old, would they've been the same drivers they are now???

[Russfeld]

Its a question of time in racing, not neccessarily age. Say one guy starts racing cars at 16, and wins the F3 championship at 25. Say another guy starts racing at 22 and win the F3 championship at 26. Id go with the older guy because at first glance he's more talented, and is going to have a much more worklike attitude instead of just being one of these kids who's been in racing all his life.

And the drivers dont lose their talent with age, they just burn out mentally and cant drive to 11/10ths every lap of a GP. Hill didnt get slow in 99, he just lost his motivation

[Don K]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
On the other hand I do think experience is overrated in modernday F1. Debutants tend to learn the tricks of the trade extremly quick. Experiencewise, Ralf never had anything on Montoya. Same can be said on Coulthard in comparison to Raikkonen.

If experience has no impact on results, we can do a direct comparison:

2001+2002:
Ralf 91 points, Montoya 81 points.

2002:
Coulthard 42 points, Raikkonen 24 points.

You can't possibly say that Raikkonen is better than Coulthard, unless you take their experience and/or age into account.
And you can't possibly say that Montoya is better than Ralf, unless you take their experience into account.

Or let me put it in another way:

Montoya:
2001, first 8 races: 6 points (Williams: 28) = 21%.
2001, last 8 races: 19 points (W:43) = 44%.
2002, first 8 races: 27 points (W: 54) = 50%.
2002, last 8 races: 23 points (W: 35) = 66%.

[R]

Originally posted by Russfeld
And the drivers dont lose their talent with age, they just burn out mentally and cant drive to 11/10ths every lap of a GP. Hill didnt get slow in 99, he just lost his motivation

That's right, look at Alain Prost, look at Nigel Mansell (to name two examples from the newer era). Mansell won his final F1 race when he was 41 years old.

And Damon Hill was 31 years old when he first drove an F1 race, and he ended up World Champion...

The bad news is that TGF, with his great physical condition - provided he keeps his motivation - can stay in F1 for another 10 years...

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by R
That's right, look at Alain Prost, look at Nigel Mansell (to name two examples from the newer era). Mansell won his final F1 race when he was 41 years old.

And Damon Hill was 31 years old when he first drove an F1 race, and he ended up World Champion...

The bad news is that TGF, with his great physical condition - provided he keeps his motivation - can stay in F1 for another 10 years...

But will Ferrari still be dominating in 10 years time? I think not. Maybe Schumacher will try to become the all-time oldest F1 driver. I think Fangio hold that record at 46. 14 years to go...

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by Yoong Montoya
But will Ferrari still be dominating in 10 years time?

If TGF, Ross, Rory and Jean all stayed for the 10 years, I wouldn't bet against it.

[BootsOntheSide]

That's pretty much the only record he can't realistically hope for, if he's still around in 10 years he'll be closing in on Montoya's pole record.

[Inigo Montoya]

You mean Senna's pole record.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Don K
If experience has no impact on results, we can do a direct comparison:

2001+2002:
Ralf 91 points, Montoya 81 points.

2002:
Coulthard 42 points, Raikkonen 24 points.

You can't possibly say that Raikkonen is better than Coulthard, unless you take their experience and/or age into account.
And you can't possibly say that Montoya is better than Ralf, unless you take their experience into account.

Or let me put it in another way:

Montoya:
2001, first 8 races: 6 points (Williams: 28) = 21%.
2001, last 8 races: 19 points (W:43) = 44%.
2002, first 8 races: 27 points (W: 54) = 50%.
2002, last 8 races: 23 points (W: 35) = 66%.

Excuse me, but in my book points aren't the ideal measurement for driver-quality. And yes, Kimi is a much better driver than DC is.

[Glen]

Kimi might be the better driver in the sense that you feel most strongly about (me too, has is a much greater potential) - but clearly DC was better in the only sense that counts... which takes experience into account. Many of the qualities that yield points and results aren't the stuff of "boys own" stories - it has more to do with being in the right place at the right time, avoiding mistakes, knowing when to drive for the points ... all that boring stuff. It is remarkable, to me, that Schumacher is now bringing all these "wise old head" characteristics into the mix - he just always appears in the right place in the right time, which was not always the case.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Being at the right time in the right place has just as much to do with luck as anything. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that experience made the point-diffrence between Kimi and DC. I did see however alot of blown Mercedes-engines in the back of Kimi's car.

[Damon]

Yeah, 11 retirements dosn't exactly help ones points total!

[EERO]

Bear in mind, Raikkonen has looked good over the past two seasons and is being tipped as a future WDC.

In 1991, who would have believed that the awesome Jean Alesi would have failed to live up to his enourmous potential. Quite simply, we can never know. recall as well that Hakkinen was tipped as a capable if erratic driver yet it wasn't until the end of his seventh season in F1 that he won a race.

Raikkonen and Montya could both fail to live up to their potential and a driver like Heidfeld could prove to be the future great.

To go back to the original question, Fangio was 39 when he appeared in Europe and was 47 when he retired. Guiseppi Farina was actully 49 when he quit.

[Snrub]

Did Ralf really have that much racing experience over JPM? It clearly took JPM a while to get the hang of F1, but I think it was more than simply driving the car around the track.

As for using points; Racing has a lot to do with luck and other factors. The way you tell who's a good driver is how do they perform compared to their teammate? This doesn't means lap times and opportunites where they get to shine, not primarly points. Watching them go around you get a sense of who's doing it right and who's not.

When you watch Ralf and he makes a mistake, I usually get the impression it's because he is taxing his limits. JPM on the other hand will sometimes screw up starts, passes, etc and I usually get the impression it wasn't his ability that was limiting him.

KR surprised me not because he showed up DC, it was because I didn't think he was as good as he proved to be. DC has always been overrated and I feel the same about MH.

I also realize that just because someone has "raw speed" it doesn't mean they're going to get it together and win. MS is so successful through both.

[Don K]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
I have seen no evidence whatsoever that experience made the point-diffrence between Kimi and DC. I did see however alot of blown Mercedes-engines in the back of Kimi's car.

I'm not quite sure about this.

Looking at this year's data for the top teams, each of the less experienced drivers seem to have had more blown engines than their team-mates (9-2).
For the other teams, the situation seems to be more even (11-11, or in fact 9-11 as I think we shouldn't include Minardi).

Percentage blown engines this year vs average experience:

Ferrari:
M.Schumacher 0/17=0% blown, experience 168,5 races
Barrichello 1/15=7% blown, experience 153,5 races

Williams:
R.Schumacher 1/17=6% blown, experience 91,5 races
Montoya 2/17=12% blown, experience 25,5 races

McLaren:
Coulthard 1/17=6% blown, experience 132,5 races
Raikkonen 6/17=35% blown, experience 24,5 races

Renault:
Button 2/17=12% blown, experience 42,5 races
Trulli 3/17=18% blown, experience 87,5 races

Sauber:
Frentzen 0/1=0% blown, experience 140,5 races
Heidfeld 0/17=0% blown, experience 41,5 races
Massa 1/16=6% blown, experience 8 races

Jordan:
Sato 1/17=6% blown, experience 8,5 races
Fisichella 4/16=25% blown, experience 99 races

BAR:
Panis 2/17=12% blown, experience 115,5 races
Villeneuve 3/17=18% blown, experience 107,5 races

Minardi:
Webber 0/16=0% blown, experience 8 races
Davidson 0/2=0% blown, experience 1 races
Yoong 2/14=14% blown, experience 7 races

Toyota:
McNish 0/16=0% blown, experience 8 races
Salo 1/17=6% blown, experience 100,5 races

Arrows:
Frentzen 1/11=9% blown, experience 134,5 races
Bernoldi 2/11=18% blown, experience 22,5 races

[Mackmot]

I think that the people that choose the drivers in F1 are far better at deciding who is the best driver than any of you lot so if Dennis, Williams etc pick somebody to drive their cars then they must be pretty damn good.

[Liz]

So Johnny Dumfries was a better driver than Derek Warwick because Senna picked Johnny for a teammate? I think not.

Anyway that wasn't the question. I think these days if you're not showing better than average potential by the time you're 21, you can forget it. OTOH, Cristiano is 29 years old and until he came to Newman-Haas he was not especially imprsesive in Champ Cars. Alesi had the bad fortune to be on the right team at the wrong time, and eventually of course the shape of F1 changed so it no longer fit his driving style. Prost was king of the turbos and may not have been as successful if he'd started in another era.

IMO the really impressive thing about Fangio was that he lived to retire from racing when the vast majority of his compatriots had been killed many years before. In his day and age, retiring at an advanced age was proof positive that you were an outstanding and superior pilot.

[Russfeld]

Well as I recall he also started racing at an advanced age, but point taken

[Liz]

Yes, I believe you're right, he did. But starting at a late age is also a disadvantage, especially back in those days when people his age compared to sixty year olds of today.