Old tracks

[safc_fan89]

Some things I've wondered about some of the great tracks that once graced F1. If I could have some answers/opinions I would appreciate it.

1. Why was the Kyalami track layout changed between 1985 and 1992? From what I've heard and seen, the original Kyalami was a great circuit.

2. Why did the Osterreichring disappear? Was it down to being unsafe or financial problems?

3. In either 1982 or 1983, can't remember the exact year, why did the US get 3 street races?

And a more recent one. In an F1 book I have, published in 2001 I think, it said that F1 was coming back to Brands Hatch in 2002. Was this going to happen or was it most likely a rumour that they decided to print?

If any of this has been discussed in another thread, could you guide me to it please?

[Kicking-back]

F1 was never really going back to Brands Hatch - it was being used as a bargaining chip with Silverstone.

[safc_fan89]

Was there a rumour going around at that time? I don't see any other reason for a book to include a comment like that. It said 'F1 is coming home' as Brands Hatch was set to host a Grand Prix in 2002, presumably instead of Silverstone.

[Kicking-back]

It never got as far as being on the calendar - and the discussions were a couple of years earlier than that.

I suspect the book's been shoddy with its research

[safc_fan89]

Fair enough. It would be good to see F1 back at Brands Hatch though. What about my other queries?

[Kicking-back]

Austria was dropped after the 1987 race when there were three separate starts due to pile ups.

It was felt to be getting a bit fast and narrow for the turbo cars, although surrounding infrastructure issues may have played a part.

[safc_fan89]

I know about that (the pile-ups), but wouldn't a solution have been to simply widen the straight? It would have been far better to modify the track so it had a suitable width, and improve the safety of the track, without turning it into the A1-Ring, which may have produced good racing but was an insult to the old Osterreichring. It's a shame that the old track doesn't even exist now.

[Nintendo]

It's a real pity. Osterreichring was great, and the A1 GP (Bah Dum Chh) circuit was rubbish. Mostly, I was the Nordschliefe

[Kicking-back]

Nintendo - I note from your profile you were born two years after the Osterreichring last hosted a Grand Prix.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking everything before your time was marvellous and everything you can remember is rubbish.

There can be a romanticism of things we never experienced first hand.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Nintendo - I note from your profile you were born two years after the Osterreichring last hosted a Grand Prix.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking everything before your time was marvellous and everything you can remember is rubbish.

There can be a romanticism of things we never experienced first hand.

On this occasion though, Nintendo's right I believe. It was an exciting track to watch an F1 race and produced some amazing races, particularly finishes. The Bosch curve was a pretty awesome piece of tarmac too, something a lot of drivers of the time missed after 1987. It was very dangerous too, one of the reasons it was dropped I believe. The old Österreichring claimed the life of Mark Donohue during practice in 1975. In a strange twist of fate, John Watson, who took Mark's place in the Penske, went on to win his first GP there a year later.

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by davyboy

On this occasion though, Nintendo's right I believe. It was an exciting track to watch an F1 race and produced some amazing races, particularly finishes. The Bosch curve was a pretty awesome piece of tarmac too, something a lot of drivers of the time missed after 1987. It was very dangerous too, one of the reasons it was dropped I believe. The old Österreichring claimed the life of Mark Donohue during practice in 1975. In a strange twist of fate, John Watson, who took Mark's place in the Penske, went on to win his first GP there a year later.

That's fair enough regarding the fact it was unsafe. But it could have been changed to make it safe, ie. wider start-finish straight, better run-off areas, flatten the runoff areas (I remember de Cesaris was flipped after driving over some undulating grass) and stuff like that. I have only seen the track once on a DVD but I saw enough to say that it was as good, if not better, than Spa is at the moment.

[safc_fan89]

Well the Osterreichring was great, the A1 Ring was average. I've only watched one race at the track (not live obviously) and the circuit was amazingly quick.

[Nintendo]

OK, i meant through replays

[Pingguest]

I don't see Formula 1 to return to Bratch Hatch. The run-off areas are too small, and the track facilities even look more old fashion than Silverstone.

[forzaf1]

As much as I would want Brands to host F1, it never will. There are really to many things to list.

Bernie wants F1 to be the best in the world and thus wants to be at the best tracks in the world with the best facilities in the world.

Alex

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by forzaf1

As much as I would want Brands to host F1, it never will. There are really to many things to list.

Bernie wants F1 to be the best in the world and thus wants to be at the best tracks in the world with the best facilities in the world.

Alex

Sometimes I think Bernie Ecclestone demands too much. New tracks like Sepang and Bahrein have fantastic facilities, but these tracks don't really have a character like Silverstone, Monza, Spa and Suzuka have.

[ascarmarshal]

Brands Hatch Lesuire PLC did get the contract to hold the British Grand Prix at Brands Hatch and planning permission was granted for the improvements for the circuit. BHL was then purchased by Interpublic under its Octagon brand. The plans were still on until Two Jags called the plans in and Octagon aquired Silverstone. From then on the Brands Hatch plans were dropped and all the Octagon money went to Silverstone and very little work was done at the other 4 venues within the group. The vast majority of the local residents were for the GP coming to Brands.

[Pingguest]

There's one think I don't understand. By Turn 1 at Indianalpolis (to make it a bit complicated: it's the last corner of the Grand Prix-circuit ) the wall is just next to the track. There's no run-off area at all. So, why doesn't owners of Imola bring back the original Tamburello and Villeneuve corners?

[ascarmarshal]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

There's one think I don't understand. By Turn 1 at Indianalpolis (to make it a bit complicated: it's the last corner of the Grand Prix-circuit ) the wall is just next to the track. There's no run-off area at all. So, why doesn't owners of Imola bring back the original Tamburello and Villeneuve corners?

The wall at Indy is the SAFER wall not concrete until after the exit well onto the front stretch ( on the GP circuit) of that turn. All they need to do at Tamburello was put tyre wall and gravel trap in place rather than mess up the corner.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

The wall at Indy is the SAFER wall not concrete until after the exit well onto the front stretch ( on the GP circuit) of that turn. All they need to do at Tamburello was put tyre wall and gravel trap in place rather than mess up the corner.

It woesn't really possible to have a huge gravel trap. There's a small river just behind the Tamburello-corner.

[ascarmarshal]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

It woesn't really possible to have a huge gravel trap. There's a small river just behind the Tamburello-corner.

There was and is room for a gravel trap and tyre wall

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

There was and is room for a gravel trap and tyre wall

Surely a tire wall at least. Ayrton hit a concrete wall, Roland hit a concrete wall. Remember how tyres saved Luciano Burti at Spa despite losing nearly no speed in 2001.

I never saw the Osterreichring live but for what is worth, the A1 Ring usually provided some passing and good racing.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

There was and is room for a gravel trap and tyre wall

But that gravel trap was just too small.

[James North]

At the time of Senna's death the suspension was made of steel (or a metal in any case) And what killed him, was not the wall, or the speed differential of the accident, but the suspension hitting him in the head.

Today suspension is made from carbon firbre (I think) and is designed to shatter in the event of a crash like that.

Imola didn't really have much choice but to alter that corner, because to landscape past the stream would have been too expensive.

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The A1 Ring wasn't a patch on the old track, but it was a excellent race track.

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Brands did hold the deal to host the British Grandprix, polictics destroyed it. But to upgrade to modern F1 standards would have completely destroyed the soul and character of the Brands Hatch track. Lots of trees would have bitten the dust. And although the new Hockenhiem can produce some good races, Many of pine after the old flat stretch through the forrest.

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by James North

At the time of Senna's death the suspension was made of steel (or a metal in any case) And what killed him, was not the wall, or the speed differential of the accident, but the suspension hitting him in the head.

I know the facts, have heard and read about them a hundred times, but surely if he had hit tyres instead of concrete there was a much better chance of the crash not being as violent, therefore not thrusting the suspension arm into his helmet?