Put this engine into sportscar racing...NOW!

[Regis]

excoriate me for keeping this alive if you like... but the fastest stock 1/4-miler forever ('til the Enzo came along) was the '66 (or '67?) Shelby AC Cobra 427SC - 12.2, 130-something mph.
Its direct competition, the '67 'vette with three-twos atop a 427 cranking 435 bhp did the quarter in 12.8 seconds.
A 66 Cuda with hemi doing mid-tens was/is most definitely not stock. Besides, I think a stock drive-train/rear axle would never handle all that testosterone. Not for long, anyway...
just my .02, and not worth diddly-squat!
oh- to be on-topic, a R&S MIIIC might beat an Audi R8 straight up, if and only if it has an Elan V8, three Jan Magnussens, and Joest team in the pit. now, how do I add that smilie? ah, (Click here for full topic reply features.)

[LandOfSnow]

Might have been something more realistic also, but surely a Mac F1 beats the AC?

[Mal]

Originally posted by LandOfSnow
Might have been something more realistic also, but surely a Mac F1 beats the AC?

Yes it does - 11.6 R & T quoted, and I think there are serveral porsces that would beat those times as well

[Tim Northcutt]

Lee....those 'cudas and darts couldbe obtained...and there were two MOPAR dealers...one in Michigan and the other in Rhode island... that actually did the same for MOPARs that Yenko did for Chevy's out of Chicago...

They each built a couple of hundred 1966 'Cudas with the 426 Hemi "street version" in them....the street version was "factory Listed" at 425 hp in a chassis that was smaller and lighter than the 1968 Cuda or Dart...and you could buy them off the showroom floor...

BTW....this gave Hurst the idea to take the same Hemi, put it BEHIND the driver, to create the legendary show car known as "Hemi Under Glass"...it would pull a fiull wheelie down the entire 1/4 mile because there was almost no weight at all in the front end of the chassis....

In the far right-hand column of that list ore the sources for those times...those sources, if you go throught the key, are fairly reputable sources...unless you think MotorTrend and others are just propaganda rags...

And as noted before...don't believe a single number you read on Detroit Horsepower from the 1960s...they regularly cut the actual horsepower but at least 50 and sometimes as much as 100 from the "real" figures so their customers wouldn't get whacked for car insurance...

Like Mal...I'm still looking for the Thread on "Spostcar Engines"...to see if anyone knows anything about the Subaru engine I mentioned before...

[Mal]

Originally posted by Regis

oh- to be on-topic, a R&S MIIIC might beat an Audi R8 straight up, if and only if it has an Elan V8, three Jan Magnussens, and Joest team in the pit. now, how do I add that smilie? ah, (Click here for full topic reply features.)

But did the Audis ever run a full pelt? THey never had any real competition did they?

Likewise the Bentley - I dont think they ran flat out

[Tim Northcutt]

You're probably right, Mal....

Why push yourself when no one else (except different teams driving the same car as you) is even close to being in your mirrors????

We may have seen the Audi's full run ability under the 2003 regs with smaller restrictors for their engine anyway, just because those teams would have no desire to run second best to the Bentleys for any reason...but with 2002 regs, they probably did not push to their full potential at places like Le Mans, etc....

[Regis]

I don't know if we shall ever see the R8 stretched technically to its limits - we haven't seen it yet. I seriously doubt it was maxed out at LM in 2003.

Ullrich Baretzky, the man in Ingolstadt behind the R8/Bentley motors - and I should say THE MAN, as what he, within Audi, has created is amazing - delivered the motors to the various Audi teams at LM this year saying "take your pick - they are all equal".

The Bentley motor, punched out to 4 litres and with 50 more HP, was untouchable. Maxed out or not, I don't know.

But I will bet the intramural battle within Bentley this year ensured that the 7 car and the 8 were pushed to their absolute limits. Those numbers regarding the 7 car's times in the pit just blow the mind. That was Joest at its maximum efficiency.

I also guarantee Joest/Bentley put in work weeks of 80-100 hours in the months between Sebring and LM, ensuring the cars' reliability as well as speed for LM. Make no doubt, the current iteration of the Bentley is the ultimate sportscar/prototype.

How far off the pre-chicane race distance record was the 7 car? Not much, I reckon. Someone here must know...

I hope VW bring the Bentleys to race at Petit this October - to see them swooping up hill/down dale would be special. They look so purposeful, so menacing, so brutish.

[Mal]

Originally posted by Regis

Make no doubt, the current iteration of the Bentley is the ultimate sportscar/prototype.

How far off the pre-chicane race distance record was the 7 car? Not much, I reckon. Someone here must know...

I hope VW bring the Bentleys to race at Petit this October - to see them swooping up hill/down dale would be special. They look so purposeful, so menacing, so brutish.

In all the years I have been going to Le Mans The Bentley looked so impressive in the way it took the corners. It was just on rails!

[Andy Zarse]

Originally posted by LandOfSnow
A 2200lb stock 'Cuda? no way...

On the Galaxies/Falcons/Mustangs used in the European circuit racing... a Falcon/Mustang is still pretty much THE car for pre '66 FIA touring cars historic racing, a Alfa GTA 1600 might a good choice also... Homologated weight for the Falcon is under a ton.

As was mentioned some of the light sportcars, like Caterhams could compete evenly (beat?) the yank tanks on the strip and absolutely destroy 'em on any kind corners/bends... an Enzo would probably be pushed quite hard by one on a relatively slow track.

Quite right. The Falcon is probably the most competitive car in the pre '66 class. But its great fun to see little terriers like a Mini Cooper nippin' at their heels! And beating them on the twistier tracks. Back in the eighties I remember seeing a Lotus Cortina terrorise one at Snetterton, which really is a power curcuit. The Falcon won, but only by a cars length. I think a Cooper could fit into the not inconsiderable boot (trunk?) of a Falcon, which has about five times the power output. A good Cooper of it's day only put down about 100bhp at the wheels.

I'm glad someone agrees we have moved on in the last thirty plus years. If you see a Mini today, its usually at the head of a queue and holding up the traffic flow.

[Tim Northcutt]

personally, I'd be interested in seeing a Shelby Cobra with the big 427 in it (a true sportscar from the later 1960s) race a Caterham in a legends race of some sort just to see how the two would fare....

I have no idea which car would win, but the Cobra was a rocket ship, and it could corner well on road circuits....and the power unde rthe hood was downright awesome....

There is a classic car store about 4 blocks from my house that has a Shelby with that engine in it (dual quads for the carbs) that carroll Shelby build for Al Unser Sr and they authenticated that it was "Big Al's" car through Shelby American....they want $60,000 for it...an incredible piece of machinery....they fire up that big block and the walls shake in the building....

[Mal]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
personally, I'd be interested in seeing a Shelby Cobra with the big 427 in it (a true sportscar from the later 1960s) race a Caterham in a legends race of some sort just to see how the two would fare....

I have no idea which car would win, but the Cobra was a rocket ship, and it could corner well on road circuits....and the power unde rthe hood was downright awesome....

There is a classic car store about 4 blocks from my house that has a Shelby with that engine in it (dual quads for the carbs) that carroll Shelby build for Al Unser Sr and they authenticated that it was "Big Al's" car through Shelby American....they want $60,000 for it...an incredible piece of machinery....they fire up that big block and the walls shake in the building....

If that really is a genuine shelby cobra for $60K then give me the number and I will buy it!!

[veeten]

Damn glad I started this thread, look at the directions it has gone; from sportscar to drag racing to saloon cars and back to sportscars again.

Thank you one and all, and keep going. It's just too interesting...

[Dauntless]

Originally posted by veeten
Thank you one and all, and keep going. It's just too interesting...

Not only that, but no idle thuggery, either...

But back on thread...

Having watched every broadcast minute of the past several Le Mans multiple times, I am convinced that the teams were racing their hearts out. Maybe the rules were rigged to favor the Bentley Boys this year, and maybe they weren't, but I sure didn't see any nudge-nudge, wink-wink on the part of the pros from Joest. Those guys appeared to me to give it everything they had.

And in years past I came away with the some impression - that each team did its utmost to win.

Now, the question as to whether the R8 chassis was stretched to its maximum potential is a fascinating one indeed. Personally, I prefer to think that Audi built a chassis beyond what was required for the hp available, just so they could run it flat out for 24 hours without having to worry about breaking stuff -- and then exploited the modular approach to rapidly replace anything that DID have the temerity to break. The gearbox comes to mind...

[Andy Zarse]

Originally posted by Mal
If that really is a genuine shelby cobra for $60K then give me the number and I will buy it!!

Likewise! Fancy going halfs Mal?? It's about two thirds the price of a new one!

IMO the Cobra was so sucessful because of it's speed down the straights. If you watch one racing, in corners it seems to be visibly slower than other cars that have less power but more competent suspension. But then come the straight, it just launches!

Someone somewhere on this thread mentioned the chassis tuning ability of Carroll Shelby. It's too far back in the thread to find! I would only say I think he was reasonable, but could only work with what he was given. The AC Ace on which the Cobra was based was originally designed for a two litre engine. The Mustangs etc did not provide a particularly sound base from which his chassis engineering skills could really shine. Certainly, I think it is fair to say he was no Colin Chapman. Shelby could put a good reliable overall package together and run a well oiled team like no one else (at least until Porsche came into the frame). I think this was the main reason he was so sucessful.

To get back on thread, are we really arguing that todays best sportscar should use basically the same engine design as Shelby did all those years ago? I say there has to be a better way.

[veeten]

unfortunately, notice that outside of Audi, no one has brought a better, muchaless manufacturer, engine to contest in sportscar racing. Sure, Pescorolo/Courage have Peugeot-derived powerplants, but outside of that there hasn't been a major manufacturer step up.

Perhaps with the new racing series comming, that will change.

[skycafe]

I think what Tim Northcut was describing for sale was a Mustang with the Cobra engine fitted. A geniune Cobra now is worth what, half a million US?

The Peugeot effort in the Pescarolo Courage, and also the engines the WR have been using seem to be back door engines. Does anyone know? They don't seem to have full backing by Peugeot. Maybe I am wrong.

I think there are a number of engines that could work in ALMS and Le Mans, provided they are funded by one of the major manufacturers.

Maybe I would petition Mazda to field a turbo rotary. It would only take about $10 Million on the engine program, and maybe $5 Million on chassis development.

The Nissan V6 in the 350Z, turoed, might have a future under ALMS and Le Mans, but I don't think Nissan has near the depth of money to do it now.

[LandOfSnow]

I don't have any hard facts but I believe a race 289 Cobra would be faster than a race 427 in lap times. You can get 450hp from a "historic" spec 289 and the smaller engined car is better balanced. I doubt a 427 could use the extra power, at least with the FIA spec tyres.

[Regis]

The 289 was a bit evil in its handling... a cast-iron V8 stuffed into the AC with its transverse springs front and rear (!) and a ladder frame caused all sorts of torsional flex. It trounced the Corvettes at the time due to vastly superior power-to-wieght ratio.

The 427 utilised a new frame with much better handling characteristics. The 427s walked the 289s at all circuits.

The 289 c.i. Cobra Daytona coupes (FIA-GT World Champions in '65 and would have been in 1964, had E. Ferrari not pulled a typical BS move to avoid defeat) had their ladder-back frames heavily beefed up.

[LandOfSnow]

Mk1 289, AC frame/suspension.
Mk2 427, coil overs etc.
Mk3 289, coil overs etc.

Mk4 The modern wannabe stuff...

[Regis]

okay, you win on the short courses, for now! I reckon a 289 with coil/overs might take the big block on a tight circuit favoring handling. Next time I see Pete Brock though - hopefuly this weekend at Sears Point, I'm gonna put the question to him.

[Andy Zarse]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Since we're talking sportscar racing and prototypes, andy Zarse, lets compare how a 2.OL with a turbo runs against the Dinosaur V-8s....

Sorry to drag this one back to the top, chaps!!!

But at the recent Goodwood Festival of Speed, there was a Toyota Eagle Mk III. I have never really seen one before on these shores and I found it very interesting. So yesterday I looked it up on good old Mulsanne Mikes website...

Jesus! Twenty one wins in twenty seven starts during 1991-93. A 2.1 litre turbo, circa 750 bhp on a 54mm air restrictor . 10,000+lbs downforce @ 200mph. What a car!!!

So it sems the turbo thing can be done properly and reliably, with a decent budget and a bit of the old "appliance of science".

[gttouring]

well as far as new motor go and killer pieces, FORD has a new prototype one-off MUSTANG
get this a 351cu.in. V10 mustang with 440hp and 450 lb.ft of torque.
that is 6 litres eh?
it is in 'motortrend' of august i believe, saw it at the local convinient store.
now this mustang will never see production but...that motor!
since the ford gt willbe V8 based as of now maybe it won't
a V10 ford
rumor is a version was built by Ford Australia frist as a convertible, then the new hardtop here (cobra R look)
many peopel have done a V10 5.4 litre tuck engine swap (DOHC), even the motor mounts match the 4.6 and the bellhousing has a simple adapter so this was a natural-although the 351 is brand new hmmmm