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Old 17 Mar 2006, 18:08 (Ref:1551305)   #1
CombeMarshal
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CombeMarshal should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Blue Flags

Just a nice easy quick question!
When were Blue Flags introduced, namely in F1?
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 18:28 (Ref:1551323)   #2
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The STIG should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
when drivers lost the ability to look in their mirrors
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 18:34 (Ref:1551327)   #3
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I'm guessing it wasn't at Manaco
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 18:35 (Ref:1551332)   #4
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Dam you lot and your crazy answers!!
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 18:52 (Ref:1551342)   #5
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Years and years - forever, probably. However, if you mean the current 'pull over or else' interpretation of the blue flag, it's probably 10 years or so, about the same time as the FIA dediced that since they run it they must know better than anyone esle, especially about things that they've never actually done, such as flags.
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 20:05 (Ref:1551424)   #6
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My little book (How to Run a Motor Race) from the '60s mentions blue flags. It starts:
"The use of this flag is explained..for two reasons: it is the safety flag, the only one used on the circuit that may prevent an original incident or accident and it is the flag that is misused more than any other."

However, the book goes on to say (after defining the use and limitations of the flag) that strictly adhering to that definition it would quickly render it useless.

So - without delving into the depths of the regs (from whatever era), blue flags seem to have been around for ever and there is still debate around their use, even after all that time.

As a flag marshal (15 years at last reckoning) I still say that if I show a stationary blue, I expect the driver to look in his mirror. If I wave a blue I expect him to look in both mirrors and do something.
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 20:23 (Ref:1551431)   #7
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Further to above post - one of the reasons we stopped doing F1 was down to the fact that we were "told" when to show one. Bang goes the best bit of flagging, ie working it out for yourself.

We did see the computer visual in race control, which looked very good in itself, but we proved to ourselves that it was cr*p in reality.

So next time you see Alonso in traffic waving his fist and shouting "blue flag - blue flag" - don't necessarily blame the marshals - is the radio working, (more likely can he see them?)?

To the "powers that be" in the organising club - various clubs use radios for better or worse - is it worth pointing out that communication in general is "cr*p".
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 20:29 (Ref:1551435)   #8
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Frankly that last post has shocked me. I was under the impression that at all levels of motorsport the marshals had some say in what flag they waved, and that blues in particular were at the discretion of the flag marshal.

Remind me not to do F1...
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Old 17 Mar 2006, 22:47 (Ref:1551517)   #9
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>>>As a flag marshal (15 years at last reckoning) I still say that if I show a stationary blue, I expect the driver to look in his mirror. If I wave a blue I expect him to look in both mirrors and do something.
=== spot-on, as a driver that's what I do (except the 'do something' bit, I was taught from ARDS onwards that it's up to faster traffic to find a safe way round, just don't slam the door on them).
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 00:09 (Ref:1551580)   #10
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Originally Posted by MGDavid
I was taught from ARDS onwards that it's up to faster traffic to find a safe way round, just don't slam the door on them).
Interesting view from whomever taught you.
Have a look at J15.4 which says that you should give the right of way to a car which is consistently or temporarily faster. So I agree with Shelagh that there is an expectation that you "do" something.
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 00:22 (Ref:1551589)   #11
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Mark Mitchell should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMark Mitchell should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMark Mitchell should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMark Mitchell should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Interesting view from whomever taught you.
Have a look at J15.4 which says that you should give the right of way to a car which is consistently or temporarily faster. So I agree with Shelagh that there is an expectation that you "do" something.
Which seems to be pretty much what MG David was saying!

I think the onus is on the faster driver to negotiate a safe way past the slower competitor. At the same time, the slower competitor should not intentionally hold the quicker guy up, but also should not have to slow down any more himself, thus possibly losing places or wrecking a qually lap!
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 00:28 (Ref:1551593)   #12
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Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell
Which seems to be pretty much what MG David was saying!
Guess it depends on how you read it Mark.
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 10:19 (Ref:1551731)   #13
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Originally Posted by Shelagh
Further to above post - one of the reasons we stopped doing F1 was down to the fact that we were "told" when to show one. Bang goes the best bit of flagging, ie working it out for yourself.

We did see the computer visual in race control, which looked very good in itself, but we proved to ourselves that it was cr*p in reality.

So next time you see Alonso in traffic waving his fist and shouting "blue flag - blue flag" - don't necessarily blame the marshals - is the radio working, (more likely can he see them?)?

To the "powers that be" in the organising club - various clubs use radios for better or worse - is it worth pointing out that communication in general is "cr*p".

LOL, thats why I asked the question originaly, Had a slight disagreement with an arm chair spectator on another Forum that knows everything in the world!!
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 11:15 (Ref:1551749)   #14
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>>>>>>>>>an expectation that you "do" something

Like what? Back off (Schumacher/Coulthard at Spa)? Pull over? If so which way? How far?

As an ARKS instructor I always taught people to stick to the line they're on, don't impede the leader, and above all don't spin in front of them! Often the best action is what seems to the outside to be "masterly inaction" - go in too deep, miss the apex, run a little too wide on exit - all of these are nothing to the onlooker but are the safest way to allow an alert driver past.

In fact the F1 rule seems designed to CAUSE controversy. Helps TV ratings no doubt.
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 11:56 (Ref:1551765)   #15
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Like most things in motorsport that originate either from horse racing or the Army, I think the blue flag originated from the latter. When you see an Army convoy the lead vehicle has a blue flag displayed on the front to denote that there is a convoy behind it, no real problem to transpose this to motor racing then.

For indications on it's use (both for marshals and drivers) Try http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 12:37 (Ref:1551777)   #16
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I thought they had green at the front and red at the rear?
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 15:44 (Ref:1551887)   #17
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The trouble with F1 is that the slower driver is expected to back off and let the leaders through. In fact, they get punished if they don't. This is unique to F1 and why flagging at grands prix is no longer a challenge.

In "normal" racing I would expect the driver being shown the blue to do the best he could so as not to impede the faster guys. In sportscars this usually means sticking to the line and keeping it clean so the faster car can get around safely. In other formulae it really depends on the level of experience/ability.

If you get a pack of leaders coming up on a pack of backmarkers - what the heck do you expect them to do? As a flag marshal it is a case of waving the blue like bu**ery with fingers, toes and eyes crossed that it doesn't end up in a big heap!

At the end of the day, it is always up to the faster car to safely negotiate the slower ones. The blue flag can only ever be a hint to the slower car that he needs to think "rear mirror" and not do anything stupid.

And that is why blue flagging is the best job on the circuit - the most rewarding and the most frustrating all rolled up into one - which is why I don't want to do anything else (unless it involves race control when the snow is falling)!
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 16:11 (Ref:1551917)   #18
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Originally Posted by Shelagh
And that is why blue flagging is the best job on the circuit - the most rewarding and the most frustrating all rolled up into one
Exactly Shelagh.....

I was flagging at Houston Champ Cars in 2001 when Paul Tracy came hurtling towards me at around 180mph with a 'slower car' in front. I "Blue-Flagged" the slower car causing the driver to glance in his mirror, pull over off the racing line, and allow Tracy to enter the corner at full speed on the correct line. Fine, just what I've been trained to do but the best was next lap........

PT comes around again, maybe only doing around 150mph now and brakes for my corner.......only to look over at me and wave his thanks!! Talk about a rush!!

I know most marshals across the world don't "do-it" for the thanks but when something like that happens it doesn't half make-up for all the wet and cold days spent on the bank.

btw, this was the same race when a blue flag took part in a relay but that's another story.
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 17:28 (Ref:1551977)   #19
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[QUOTE=midgetman]>>>>>>>>>an expectation that you "do" something

Often the best action is what seems to the outside to be "masterly inaction" - go in too deep, miss the apex, run a little too wide on exit - all of these are nothing to the onlooker but are the safest way to allow an alert driver past.
QUOTE]
Good examples of things that one can "do"
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If, as Freddie Mercury claimed, fat bottomed girls make the rocking world go round, isn't it about time that Croydon received some recognition for its contribution to astrophysics?
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Old 18 Mar 2006, 17:42 (Ref:1551990)   #20
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Good examples of things that one can "do"
especially good as a 'bad-lap' can always be blamed on "letting someone through" as no on-looker would know the difference.
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Old 19 Mar 2006, 14:53 (Ref:1552759)   #21
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I thought they had green at the front and red at the rear?
Believe it's Blue for the lead vehicle,Green for the last vehicle.
Red signifies dangerous material being carried
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Old 19 Mar 2006, 15:27 (Ref:1552783)   #22
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Right, I stans corected!
Good job I'm not a driver!!
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Old 19 Mar 2006, 16:42 (Ref:1552837)   #23
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I did my best ever blue flag when still a trainee (Dick Fraser actually made a note on my grading card).

Druids Out (Oulton) for British F3000 qualifying. Car pootling round on in lap but on the line comes round the corner. I noted a flash through the trees - which was a car on a hot one - so, even though this car was not in view, I waved the blue. Result: slow car jinks off line just in time to not be there as faster car drives through. Phew!

As many have said, it has been all down hill from there! Moral - never peak too soon.
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Old 20 Mar 2006, 11:57 (Ref:1554170)   #24
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In reply to who should avoid who. Maybe, instead of waving the blue flag at the car being lapped, we should wave the white flag at the car lapping (slow moving vehicle ahead), then I'd get all the glory!
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Old 20 Mar 2006, 17:24 (Ref:1555048)   #25
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Shelagh, could you copy your 60s book and hand it to certain organising clubs (and especially the FIA) because they certainly could do with some ideas!

I agree with you that flagging is the best job on the circuit and is very satisfying when you get it right (and so frustrating when you get it wrong). If I get an occasional wave of thanks that makes my day, too.
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