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Old 21 Apr 2008, 17:38 (Ref:2183120)   #26
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 01:42 (Ref:2183548)   #27
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Originally Posted by indycool
So, take it away from both of them and let them drive their race cars.
and then you have a parade which nobody cares to watch.

But give every driver an equal amount of boost and it opens up passes that normally wouldn't exist on tight street or road course or drag races when both employ it.

Call it contrived but like someone said - what rule isn't? P2P adds a bit of stratagy and makes racing more exciting and it is done evenly so, contrived maybe, but does it diminish skill - no.

Like I said, there are a lot more "gimicks" (ecu, fuel settings, spotters, tc) that lessen the skill a driver needs. P2P does nothing of the sort, it is just something different .
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 20:02 (Ref:2184337)   #28
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keep the XFE
keep P2p
option tires are good- in the loss of a tire war this is good strategy easy to see on tv and in stands.
so good Bernie needed them

The Panoz is awesome, the new car when it comes can be so as well.

Paul Tracy and someone not afraid to wreck their stuff in order to win once in a while...
hmmm Graham Rahal did just that trying to pass on the outside
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Old 25 Apr 2008, 21:25 (Ref:2186976)   #29
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The XFE has a turbo, which is additional cost in a cost-containment environment right now.

P2P is ridiculous to add when rich and lean fuel settings already lend that strategy to the show.

Option tires add cost for Firestone and probably the teams and nobody really cares. Why complicate the race any further with this nonsensical expense and headache that accompolishes nothing? And this is the Indy cars, not Bernie, thank heaven.

The Panoz DP-01 is just another rear-engine race car with four wheels, like every other formula car out there. As far as its use anywhere now, I have no clue. It hasn't even been tested on ovals.

Paul Tracy and Graham Rahal in the field? Great.
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Old 25 Apr 2008, 22:31 (Ref:2187004)   #30
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Originally Posted by indycool
The XFE has a turbo, which is additional cost in a cost-containment environment right now.

P2P is ridiculous to add when rich and lean fuel settings already lend that strategy to the show.

Option tires add cost for Firestone and probably the teams and nobody really cares. Why complicate the race any further with this nonsensical expense and headache that accompolishes nothing? And this is the Indy cars, not Bernie, thank heaven.

The Panoz DP-01 is just another rear-engine race car with four wheels, like every other formula car out there. As far as its use anywhere now, I have no clue. It hasn't even been tested on ovals.

Paul Tracy and Graham Rahal in the field? Great.
Well said. I guess P2P is not so much needed with the fuel settings. Tires and all that only add cost and offer little benefit.

However, Panoz DP-01 might just be another rear engine race car with four weeks BUT its a damn sexy one.
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Old 26 Apr 2008, 02:02 (Ref:2187064)   #31
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Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt
Three things that I will not miss from Champ Car:

Mandatory pit windows...it takes away from race strategy...
But this hasnt existed in numerous years. Not really a huge change from 07 to 08.

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Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt
The requirement to race on one set of "Red Stripe" tires...Let the teams choose the compound that works best for their race car and their strategy....

"Push to Pass"...do it on your own as was said before....

I want my racing straight, with no chaser...I don't need gimmicks to crreate excitement.
The option tire I think is a great idea. Adds strategy and as Scott Goodyear repeated to death last Sunday "it adds another tool in your tool box".

That aside John, your coming from an enthusiast's perspective when talking about P2P and reds. The sport isnt going to exist or grow on enthusiasts alone. These tools or gimmicks as you call them can provide added interests to your average sports fan. It can also liven up what could be slow or processional race.

Eg. Look at Nascar and it has more gimmicks than the rest of Motorsport combined.
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Old 26 Apr 2008, 03:40 (Ref:2187086)   #32
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Well, this being an open wheel thread I am not sure that a comparison to NASCAR in re: "gimmicks" is germain. simply put, I really don't follow NASCAR closely anymore because of some of the things they do. Not sure they qualify as "gimmicks" as (to me) they us the "rules" to arbitrarily affect race outcomes...but that is for a NASCAR thread.

What open wheel needs is good, clean, tight racing with a diverse field of drivers, chassis' and engines. Superfluous b/s like P2P only underscores the shortcomings of a spec series. To my way of thinking, P2P was an admission that they were not innovative enough to come up with a rules package that would allow for good dicing between competitors. It added a video-gameish quality to the deal where what was really needed was actual engineering and driver cunning.

While we still have spec racing we at least don't have the video game aspect. Certainly as a fan I don't want to watch a race and think: "Geez, Oswald Stumpledinck doesn't stand a chance here because he has used up his P2P, I guess I will watch something else."
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Old 26 Apr 2008, 08:08 (Ref:2187181)   #33
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Well, this being an open wheel thread I am not sure that a comparison to NASCAR in re: "gimmicks" is germain.
The NASCAR example was used to show how a series which is full of gimmicks can be highly successful.

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Originally Posted by JohnSSC
What open wheel needs is good, clean, tight racing with a diverse field of drivers, chassis' and engines. Superfluous b/s like P2P only underscores the shortcomings of a spec series. To my way of thinking, P2P was an admission that they were not innovative enough to come up with a rules package that would allow for good dicing between competitors.
Very much agree with first line John. But that isnt a reality as of 2008. Spec series which we had in both IRL, CC and now the merged Indycar all have short comings which stem from everyone having the same thing. Reds and P2P are strategy to overcome this problem in the current spec series formula we live in.

From a purists perspective I fully agree with straight up competition, but in 2008 and even 2009, if option tires and P2P create more overtaking, strategy and excitement I think it would be misguided to overlook them.
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Old 26 Apr 2008, 11:02 (Ref:2187305)   #34
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I hear where you are coming from: imho, what you are trying to do is come up with ways to attract new fans to the series. Not a thing wrong with that. For the short term it might even be effective.

For the long-haul though, I really believe it has to be about the racing. The old USAC Trail and (dare I say it) salad days of CART managed to give us some variety as well as great racing. No Gimmicks. And the fans came in droves.

Same with the old Trans-Am, Can-Am and IMSA Camel GT series'. Flatout, hammer and tongs racing.

We need to think beyond "spec racing." Set the bar a little higher rather than have people on "option brakes" or "push to corner faster" or some such. I respect where you are coming from but I think it would be a mistake to not take the long view here.
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Old 26 Apr 2008, 15:04 (Ref:2187484)   #35
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The more elements that you throw into it from a rules or operational standpoint, the more that a fan must grasp to understand it. It's why I understand baseball but don't know a triple axel from a double toe-loop in figure skating or what they're supposed to do with either one to get a good score.

The fan wants to watch the racing, who's leading, who's second, how they pit, his favorite guys and how they're doing. At 200 miles an hour going past him, he isn't going to care or understand or even be able to see a red-striped tire from a whitewall. P2P, you're essentially defrauding him -- the guy in the stands doesn't KNOW when it's being used or when this driver of that one just made a good move to do it. And that fan doesn't care -- and with cost controls, he shouldn't hafta PAY to care -- about what trick widget is underneath the cowl that he can't see. What he/she cares about is Scott Dixon vs. Graham Rahal vs. Danica Patrick vs. Helio Castroneves, etc.
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Old 26 Apr 2008, 18:32 (Ref:2187595)   #36
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What he/she cares about is Scott Dixon vs. Graham Rahal vs. Danica Patrick vs. Helio Castroneves, etc.
Am I odd man out on this? I have never approached the sport of racing like football or baseball or basketball. I don't have a favorite team or driver. I don't wear my ARG jacket around on race day and have never donned a Helio hat. I watch simply to see the best drivers in the world competing in one of the most exciting sports in the world.

Yeah, some drivers I don't care for and others I like a little more but I don't paint a number on my chest for race day like I would if I was off to see my favorite football team. And at the end of the day it is more important I saw an exciting race rather than who won.

I don't even know if all that driver/team attachment is always a positive thing for the sport. It is something NASCAR seems to relish yet where did that leave the sport when Dale died? A few million fans that just turned it off and still may not have returned. Or what about all the JR fans? It is one thing to cheer on the Cubs loosing season after season because that is the thing to do but does that same hold true for racing? At least the Cubs win some games during the year. Have all those JR fans been tunning in consistently for the past three years to watch him not win? I'd imagine many of those fickle driver based fans are lost as well.

Personally I think you need to grow the sport and fanbase of IndyCar racing through competitive exciting races - however that can be achieved. That is what you tune in to see. It doesn't matter if you know all the drivers on a first name basis - if they run a parade for 70 laps nobody gives a crap. And at this point IndyCar doesn't have the name recognition to even pull off marketing drivers short of the one whose name ends in Patrick.

The centerpiece has and always should be exciting competitive racing. The drivers will come and go and maybe there will be a mega star somewhere in between that brings new viewers but what keeps them should be the racing.

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Old 26 Apr 2008, 18:37 (Ref:2187600)   #37
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Well, that's why you have a race, to find out who wins. As the late Bloys Britt, the longtime AP motorsports writer, once penned, "the first thing done by the second guy ever to buy an automobile was to find the first guy and have a race."
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Old 2 May 2008, 17:49 (Ref:2192728)   #38
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Originally Posted by D.R.T.
From a purists perspective I fully agree with straight up competition, but in 2008 and even 2009, if option tires and P2P create more overtaking, strategy and excitement I think it would be misguided to overlook them.
One BIG problem is these little gimmicks or "temporary" items, like temporarry taxes, do not go away.

Big Bill France created his freak show by having the same top drivers for fifteen to twenty years, he could change the rules with out really changing the show.
The fact He and ONLY he could do that is shown now that he and the last of the old guard, Earnhardt are gone.

Unfortuanately other series, Trans-Am is the best example, with open wheel being lesser example, tried to imitate Big Bill without the history or collapse of competing series Bill had, and committed suicide for it.

A gimmick is a gimmick, and while the US population are absolute morons concerning mechanical things compated to even 25 years ago, they are not generally complete idiots.
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Old 2 May 2008, 17:53 (Ref:2192735)   #39
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I'm sure there are some who believe that all of CC's ideas should be incorporated into the series. I'm equally sure that there are people, like myself, who think a lot of them were bad and/or costly ideas.
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Old 3 May 2008, 02:30 (Ref:2192979)   #40
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I'm sure there are some who believe that all of CC's ideas should be incorporated into the series. I'm equally sure that there are people, like myself, who think a lot of them were bad and/or costly ideas.
I dont think anyone is saying all of CC ideas should be incorporated into the new IndyCar.

However what is important is obtain the positives from both series and put them into one new super series.

Option tires is definitely one for me, P2P I dont mind but at the same time I can see why some people dont like it.

Indycool, I can agree that P2P, options, standing starts were costly at all to CC.
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Old 3 May 2008, 11:35 (Ref:2193143)   #41
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Option tires -- Cost Firestone or the teams more money, whoever's doin' the payin'. At 200 mph going past, what fan in the stands or on TV is going to notice what tires are on? And why should that fan hafta care?

P2P -- The ICS already has a lean-to-rich fuel variable controlled by the driver. It doesn't NEED P2P.

Standing starts -- That's Formula One. Indy cars come from the tradition of "flying starts" at Indy that are now called "rolling starts." No reason to do it to be like F1. It's not. It's the Indy cars.

If all these things were so good that they had a great impact on anything, CC would've draawn enough attention to maybe stay afloat.
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Old 3 May 2008, 16:39 (Ref:2193278)   #42
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Option tires -- Cost Firestone or the teams more money, whoever's doin' the payin'. At 200 mph going past, what fan in the stands or on TV is going to notice what tires are on? And why should that fan hafta care?
Win on Sunday sell on Monday is why companies, any company related to automobiles went racing in the first place.

Spec. anything brings any series down to amateur club racing level.
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Old 3 May 2008, 21:11 (Ref:2193403)   #43
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Yes, Bob, but white-stripe Firestones or red-stripe Firestones, IMO, do NOT sell any tickets on Monday, even to those few people who ever understood it.

You might add an IMO to your comment about this being amateur club racing level for the current spec. Amateur club racers do not draw 300,000 people to any of their races or millions on television.
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Old 4 May 2008, 11:52 (Ref:2193725)   #44
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I would agree here with indycool on the "spec" comment. There are a number of very entertaining spec series out there such as Star Mazda, Atlantics, GP2, or IPL (to name a few). Spec does not = "amateur" in my book.

Would I like to see more chassis/engine combinations in the IRL (or any top-level series)? Sure! That is going to take some time. Until then l think we need to have good racing without all sorts of window dressing to try and make things more "interesting." It is why I don't like the mandatory option tire rule in F1. Forcing teams to use the option rubber for at least some portion of the race is just dumb, imho.

What I would find interesting is if Firestone provided say, two compounds for the street/road course races (not sure if this is a viable idea for the ovals) and let the teams decide what they want to run. Now that would be entertaining to see who can set up a car better or if changing track conditions might warrant a change in the compound used. But mandating that each compuond be used? No way.
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Old 4 May 2008, 14:54 (Ref:2193805)   #45
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Yes, Bob, but white-stripe Firestones or red-stripe Firestones, IMO, do NOT sell any tickets on Monday, even to those few people who ever understood it.

You might add an IMO to your comment about this being amateur club racing level for the current spec. Amateur club racers do not draw 300,000 people to any of their races or millions on television.
As opposed to how many before?
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Old 4 May 2008, 20:05 (Ref:2193961)   #46
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300,000 and millions. Contrary to what some would like to believe, CART and CC didn't hurt the "500" much at all attendance-wise, although TV ratings DID go down, but not out of the "millions."
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Old 4 May 2008, 20:47 (Ref:2193989)   #47
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300,000 and millions. Contrary to what some would like to believe, CART and CC didn't hurt the "500" much at all attendance-wise, although TV ratings DID go down, but not out of the "millions."
CART didn't do squat the non-variety formula has reduced pre-race attendance by tens of thousands, at the very least, and I got that from the track person.

I was amazed at how honest he was.

Indy is still the big one but it is no where near what it was, and as long as they imitate SCCA spec. formulas it wil remain that way.
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Old 4 May 2008, 21:34 (Ref:2194011)   #48
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Sure hasn't looked like an SCCA race all these years to me and I'm on my 50th one.
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Old 4 May 2008, 21:59 (Ref:2194025)   #49
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I don't believe spec-cars reduces spectator appeal. I'm interested in the racing, and the drivers, rather than the mechanicals. As long as it's single-seater, open wheeled, then that's fine.
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Old 4 May 2008, 22:00 (Ref:2194026)   #50
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...and if you were the only one, what I said wouldn't be true.......
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