WTCC, when does which car have an advantage?

[werner]

Everybody is afraid that SEAT will win easily in Puebla, because the high altitude favours their turbocharged engines. That makes one. What features of tracks or races suit the other cars? I can think of a few, but they are probably worth a discussion, as are things I haven't thought of.

SEAT: +high altitude; turbo
SEAT: -a lot of grip; high tyrewear
SEAT: +accelerating out of slow corners; high torque
SEAT: -long straights: aerodynamics
SEAT: -heavy braking: weight

BMW: + standing start; RWD
BMW: + tracks with only fast corners: less shifting gears needed with H-pattern gearbox
BMW: - wet track: RWD makes it harder.

Chevy: -long straights: low power
Chevy: + street-circuits: the Chevy is al littlebit less wide

That means that Seat should be strongest in Puebla and Curitiba because of the altitude. Brno, Oshersleben and maybe Okiyama would probably a bit hard for them due to the tyrewear, and Monza because of the breaking. Chevy should be strong in Macauo and Pau, and suffer in Monza and Curitiba.
BMW should be strong in Brno, Oschersleben and maybe Brands Hatch becuase off the tyrewear and in Monza because of the aero and the power.

Hopefully the Honda has some of the advantages of the BMW's and the Chevy's: good aerodynamics, powerfull engine, FWD. Not to mention the driver.

[stedevil]

Worth mentioning is that the Honda today, in official pre season testing and cold weather, BEAT the current track record on the STCC track where the testing was done.

Lap time
1:01.512
As a direct relevant comparison, Thompsons old Alfa was 3rd quickest with the time
1:01.831

So while people keep talking about TDI vs BWM and Chevies, my money is still on Thompson + Honda seriously rocking the WTCC boat this year...

[JMeissner]

You shoudnt draw too many conclutions on the pace of Björk at Sturup. Of course it is nice to see him that quick, but Sturup is not a track compareable to the WTCC-circuits, it was very cold which favors the front wheel driven cars.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Of course it is nice to see him that quick, but Sturup is not a track compareable to the WTCC-circuits, it was very cold which favors the front wheel driven cars.

Favours FWD relative the RWD yes, but surely eg +15-20C would allow better grip also for FWD cars, no? +8 isn't exatly ideal conditions for 1 fastest lap even if it might make your tires last better throughout a longer race.

Also, the closest FWD time was the above mentioned ex WTCC Alfa, a full 0.3s behind. 0.3s on such a short track is a lot and that is vs a proven WTCC race winning car. So any way you look at it I think it points at the Hondas having a huge potential.

[JMeissner]

Its the first pre-season test, driven in totally different conditions compared to WTCC - so no, any way you look at it you can't tell anything of the WTCC Hondas.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Its the first pre-season test, driven in totally different conditions compared to WTCC - so no, any way you look at it you can't tell anything of the WTCC Hondas.

Sure, belive what you want, but today again

1st Thed Björk, Honda Racing, 1.00,400

2nd FWD car
5th Tommy Kristoffersson, KMS, 1:00.865

Last years WTCC Alfa
10th Mattias Andersson, MAGP / Alfa Romeo, 1:01.894

[Bramzel]

The Honda's have always been more succesfull in DTC/STCC than they were in WTCC. Believe what you want, I'll believe it when I see it I'm not saying N-Technology / Thompson can't be succesfull, I just think its way to early to be so certain of it already.

[stedevil]

Naturally, nobody will know for sure before the Honda is on the grind in WTCC how fast it will really be. But a lot of people have already written Honda/Thompson/N-tech off. Personally, I haven't even written off that the Ladas might score a few points this year and N-Tech&Thompson has proven to be able to do miracles before, in a slower car.

[THIM]

I observed, that on banked corners BMWs are always in the back (Anderstorp, Puebla) and Chevies in the front. But BMWs are favourites on long, constant corners (Brno, Curtiba). And Seat has 2 strong sides: high power and FIA help (which are connected in fact), what makes them win everywhere.

[werner]

It was really a walk-over today!!! What made the difference, the diesel-power or the grip/tracktion?

[awrb]

I suppose the easy answer to the origional question 'when does which car have an advantage', is when the FIA chooses.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

It was really a walk-over today!!! What made the difference, the diesel-power or the grip/tracktion?

I would say, grip/tracktion. And I think that might also be the answer to the riddle of why Coronel was not allowed to get a TDI... they need at least 1 really good guy in a petrol car to not give the 2 other manufacturers too much amunition in the "Turbo Diesel" debate. Both Pertol Seats, Coronel as well as the only non BWM in the independent cup, did a clean sweep vs the brand opposition.

[werner]

Good thinking. That might well be true. But still, if the Dutch importer offered more money than the Swedisch, SEAT could also have had Rydell in the Petrol-car. Are the Swedes better negotiators? Or does SEAT rate Rydell higher? Or did Rydell had a possibility at Chevy when he didn't get the diesel?

[stedevil]

You bring up quite interesting points there. It might indeed be that Rydell might be better at the "who's the first to flinch" game. After all, while Coronel reliably brings his own Seat to the grid, Rydell already showed last year that
1) If he doesn't get a competitive car he will prefer to not make a full season as a support driver.
2) If Seat don't pick him up, he is more then capable to take up an offer from a competing manufacturer and win races from the very first weekend (just look at last years race 13 & 14, where he was visibly faster than the 3 regular Cheavy drivers). There is a good chance both Cheavy and Honda could have been interested to sign him up for 2008 if Seat didn't.

So, ironically, Coronels loyalty to Seat could actually have led up to him ending up with a ****ty deal. Well, maybe there is some undisclosed agreement between him and Seat that in some way compensates him for being in the Petrol. If not, for his own sake, I hope he switches to another car brand in 2009, because he really deserves better.

[Martin Haven]

[QUOTE=stedevil]Rydell already showed last year that
1) If he doesn't get a competitive car he will prefer to not make a full season as a support driver.
2) If Seat don't pick him up, he is more then capable to take up an offer from a competing manufacturer and win races from the very first weekend (just look at last years race 13 & 14, where he was visibly faster than the 3 regular Cheavy drivers). There is a good chance both Cheavy and Honda could have been interested to sign him up for 2008 if Seat didn't.
QUOTE]

Rickard's Chevy weekend was aided by not having the weight penalties of his team-mates and not having to care about championship points, which allowed him to be braver on hero-or-zero tyre choices, especially as Anderstorp is not unknown to him

That's not to take anything away from his abilities as a driver - I think he'll prove to be superb again this year - but he did have an advantage over Menu, Rydell and Huff in Sweden

And, after Sweden, there was not even the slightest chance that Rickard was ever going to get a Chevy drive for 2008!

[Icebaby]

Martins spot on regarding Rydell, although IMO he made a mistake in Sweden by only looking at a short term gain as Martin has pointed out should he not have a drive with Seat next year Chevy will not entertain him...having said that motorsport is a fickle business and results are the only interest.

Thompson and Honda should be quick and will be there, again I think there is a long term situation here in that Honda are going to Increase themselves based on results that N-Tech bring.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Rickard's Chevy weekend was aided by not having the weight penalties of his team-mates and not having to care about championship points, which allowed him to be braver on hero-or-zero tyre choices, especially as Anderstorp is not unknown to him

Yes, he had less lead in the car. But don't forget he was much faster then pretty much all others in both races, not just his teammates.

In the first race it didnt show very much since he followed team orders and dropped back to 9th to make sure the 2 full season guys started 1st and 2nd.

But in the second race he kept the same pace from start on dry tires as everybody else on WET. All others gambling on slicks dropped like stones, doing 1-3s slower laptimes then the guys on wet. In fact Rydell, from grid 9, passed Muller, grid 2 and also on slicks, long before Mullers Seat broke down in the still very wet conditions. He was that much faster then everybody else.

Though I agree, he sort of blew his chances for 2008 with Chevy the last 500m of that race. Not so much with the team, but certainly a few of his teammates weren't too happy I'm sure the team would still like to have him, but the risk of in team driver animosity might not be worth it.

However Honda or even BMW might have still been quite interested after the performance he showed on Anderstorp (2-3s quicker then everybody else on same tires thoughout the race in the first weeked out in a new car... I bet more then 1 team manager had fantasies of signing him...)

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

again I think there is a long term situation here in that Honda are going to Increase themselves based on results that N-Tech bring.

That rumor has been returning every season since anybody entered a Honda and never came out. Also not after Giovanardi's great performance last year in Macau. So sorry, I'm not buying a Honda factory rumor untill I see a Honda factory press-release

Originally Posted by stedevil

Though I agree, he sort of blew his chances for 2008 with Chevy the last 500m of that race. Not so much with the team, but certainly a few of his teammates weren't too happy I'm sure the team would still like to have him, but the risk of in team driver animosity might not be worth it.

Don't be so sure of that, I've seen some pretty angry expressions at some pretty important faces after that race.

[Martin Haven]

Originally Posted by stedevil

In the first race it didnt show very much since he followed team orders and dropped back to 9th to make sure the 2 full season guys started 1st and 2nd.

But in the second race he kept the same pace from start on dry tires as everybody else on WET. All others gambling on slicks dropped like stones, doing 1-3s slower laptimes then the guys on wet. In fact Rydell, from grid 9, passed Muller, grid 2 and also on slicks, long before Mullers Seat broke down in the still very wet conditions.

Yvan's SEAT was not working properly from the start and not everyone else who gambled on wets was a regular front-runner but I'd need to look at the individual lap-times to be convinced. Rickard certainly was quick, of that there is no doubt - but quicker than everybody? Not sure...

Originally Posted by stedevil

I'm sure the team would still like to have him, but the risk of in team driver animosity might not be worth it.

However Honda or even BMW might have still been quite interested after the performance he showed on Anderstorp (2-3s quicker then everybody else on same tires thoughout the race in the first weeked out in a new car... I bet more then 1 team manager had fantasies of signing him...)

Sure, Menu and especially Larini would have been mightily upset to have Rickard in the team but there is absolutely no way Ray Mallock would have taken Rickard into the fold after that performance. I think the RML team were a little surprised that SEAT were happy to risk the same happening...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Yvan's SEAT was not working properly from the start

Didn't know that. Seemed like he only lost pace somewhere mid race compaired to most others on slicks. But I'm sure you have more accurate inside info there.

and not everyone else who gambled on wets [slicks?] was a regular front-runner

Not everybody, but Andy was right behind Rydell on the grid, Farfus & Müller was back there too... and even if we don't count the RWD cars, apart from Muller, Monteiro was also ahead of Rydell at the start with slicks and finished in 6th, 7s behind Rydell, and Dahlgren started next to him on the grid also with slicks.

but quicker than everybody? Not sure...

Well, he was the only one on slicks that didnt drop back before the track started to dry up. In fact he opened up a pretty big gap to the cars behind him. He didnt get the fastest laptime though, but I assume that was because everybody on slicks put in their fastest lap on the final lap, during which Rydell was busy overtaking his 2 teammates.

And yes, those final lap moves really wasn't the most smart throughout the time of motorsposts. I guess he just really wanted to make a good show for the home crowd and just didnt consider the consequences properly.

[JMeissner]

Well, Rydell had his deal done with SEAT already at Anderstorp, so...

[werner]

I wonder if Chevy knew about the Rydell-Seat deal before they send him out in Sweden.... If they knew, it was a big mistake to let him run.
I must say, although I very much liked seeing race with Rydell overtaking the other Chevy's, it was very poor behaviour to the company that after all payed the bills for his car, tyres, fuel, etc. that race.

[stedevil]

If the deal with SEAT was done before the race, it does seem a bit weird for him to race at all in a Chevy.

In any case, I'm quite doubtful that he did it with malicious intent. After all if he did want to screw things up he could have easily knocked Menu or Larini out of the top 8 in race 1 and then taken the win in the second race in any case. Even worse, he could have crashed into another Chevy driver. That would have made a lot more damage to the regular Chevy drivers as well as team in points.

I think it's more likely he just had the adrenaline pumping and in front of the home crowd the racing instincts to win just took over on the last lap blocking out any "you are here as a support driver only" alarm bells.

[Icebaby]

Rydell did not have to dsclose the deal if it was done before the sweden round to Seat and why would he when he was being offered a free drive in front of his fans!, It could have been worse in that Rydell did not score or he crashed the car so maybe looking at the other side of the coin there were some benefits to Rydells actions..although I still think he had an obligation to respect the team orders.

[Martin Haven]

Originally Posted by stedevil

In any case, I'm quite doubtful that he did it with malicious intent... I think it's more likely he just had the adrenaline pumping and in front of the home crowd the racing instincts to win just took over on the last lap blocking out any "you are here as a support driver only" alarm bells.

Clearly also blocking out several radio transmissions from the team asking him to hold station behind Menu and Larini...

But you're right - I am led to believe that there might well have been a 2008 Chevy contract ready to be signed until the final lap of that race, but perhaps Rickard had already accepted an approach from SEAT...

either way, in hindsight, maybe completing the glorious Chevy podium sweep in a close third position - after already taking one for the team and dropping to 9th in race 1 to let Alain take race 2 pole - would have been the most honourable and best long-term option - but since when does red mist equal good judgement??

Anyhow - to return, ever so briefly, to the topic, I think we can say that Chevrolet has a really good wet weather set-up!

RML's engineers have always reckoned their chassis to be the equal of anything out there and they also reckon their engine is as strong as the diesel, although they have less low-down grunt and more at the top-end than the oil-burners...

There is no doubt, either, that the Leon is possessed of a particularly good slow-medium speed chassis... it certainly generated plenty of grip in Mexico and Brazil, where others struggled... that diesel torque (plus the extra weight over the driven wheels of the heavier engine) must be a factor too... wonder how they'll fare on the street circuits?

As for the BMWs, are we finally seeing a situation where FWD is equal to, or better than, RWD in 2-litre touring cars? Give the engines another 100bhp (with the weight of say a 3-litre unit as well) and perhaps RWD would be the thing to have but, if the tyres hold up - and they do seem to be doing so pretty well - the FWD armada seem to be on a pretty equal footing, if not ahead...

Honda's Accord should be quick too... the base engine is a powerhouse and the 2006 JAS version of the car managed to be right at the sharp end, almost no matter who was driving it... Throw in Thommo, out to prove a point, and n.technology's sole focus on the one car and we really may have a winner