2 or 3 piece wheels Appendix K

[AntA35]

Morning all,

Just wondering if anyone definitively knows whether 2 or 3 piece wheels (split rims if you prefer) are allowable for touring cars under Appendix K rules? I note that there is a section to say that Formula Fords may not use them, however I couldn't see anything about touring cars. I may not have read the document thoroughly of course.

I am keen to use slicks on my Group 1 Dolly Sprint as per allowance under App K and the wheel that was used in period is no longer available. I have found some Minilite style wheels that will do the job but to get the offset required the only ones I have found are a 3 piece wheel. They look like a cast wheel on the outside, but the fixings and construction are hidden nicely on the inside of the rim.

Any direction would be most appreciated.

[terence]

Question is "were they used in period, if so, can you supply photographic proof?"
Surely there must be an alternative to use?

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Question is "were they used in period, if so, can you supply photographic proof?"
Surely there must be an alternative to use?

That's partly the point. Because you can't see the construction from the outside who's to say if they were or weren't used either way even with photographic proof (presumably of the outside of the wheel sat on a car). However, I'm not so sure that the lack of proof to say that they weren't used on the car (as they look the same) is actually within the intended spirit of these things!

There are alternatives to enable the correct homologated wheel size, but they are all modern post 1982 patterns and would just plainly look wrong on the Dolomite. We can of course go down in rim width to get the correct offset but we then come across problems with the use of the correct tyres.

This is part of the frustration. In trying to support the cause to see a proper working credible alternative to the List 1b rubber that has been used for the last 30 years (which some race organisers are now preventing the use of for Group 1/1b) but in so doing we're finding we're regressing further into the past than recreating what was happening in period.

[morninggents]

The App K papers should state the material of the wheel as well as the size. If the 3 piece rims you can source are of the same material spec then, presumably, they should be allowed.

With all the 'Minilite' style wheels around now I'm surprised you can't find what you want in 1 piece.

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by morninggents

The App K papers should state the material of the wheel as well as the size. If the 3 piece rims you can source are of the same material spec then, presumably, they should be allowed.

With all the 'Minilite' style wheels around now I'm surprised you can't find what you want in 1 piece.

Material and size is what I discerned as important from App K, there is nothing about construction (other than Formula Fords may not use split rims). But it's good to hear everyone's views as I'd hate to get some of these commissioned only to be told I can't use them.

Annoyingly the offset of the current Minilite 1 piece wheels falls short by positive 6mm for the application as I need them. It comes down to the use of the cross ply slick tyre of appropriate size ballooning in the section width (as it did in period) meaning the wheel has to sit a few more mm inboard than the stock 6J Minilite that is currently used for a List 1b radial tyre (that doesn't balloon). This is how the original period wheels were fitted and I'm just trying to find a way to recreate it with an available wheel.

[Mike Bell]

Possibly not a help in you current situation but Minilite are able to make wheels with different offsets to order. All my Gp2 wheels were machined to my spec.

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Possibly not a help in you current situation but Minilite are able to make wheels with different offsets to order. All my Gp2 wheels were machined to my spec.

Thanks Mike… we've tried that avenue and even with the maximum positive offset possible on the castings for the 6J rim (and with maximum amount of metal removed from the flange) we're still 6mm short.

It's possible that maybe another supplier of Minilites might be able to get us there.

[Peter Mallett]

IIRC the BSCC permitted split rims in Group 1. App K doesn't reflect the regs of the period, it just reflects what the intended regs were. Each country had its own take on the base App J regs of the time.

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

IIRC the BSCC permitted split rims in Group 1. App K doesn't reflect the regs of the period, it just reflects what the intended regs were. Each country had its own take on the base App J regs of the time.

I should probably just man up and ask the organisers!

[Mike Bell]

I've thought of another solution- sell the Dolly and get a Ford instead!

[Alex E]

I noticed in the (Goodwood 72nd...I think...) regs there is a restriction on tyre width versus wheel width. Difference can only be 40mm overall from memory......

Originally Posted by AntA35

Material and size is what I discerned as important from App K, there is nothing about construction (other than Formula Fords may not use split rims). But it's good to hear everyone's views as I'd hate to get some of these commissioned only to be told I can't use them.

Annoyingly the offset of the current Minilite 1 piece wheels falls short by positive 6mm for the application as I need them. It comes down to the use of the cross ply slick tyre of appropriate size ballooning in the section width (as it did in period) meaning the wheel has to sit a few more mm inboard than the stock 6J Minilite that is currently used for a List 1b radial tyre (that doesn't balloon). This is how the original period wheels were fitted and I'm just trying to find a way to recreate it with an available wheel.

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I've thought of another solution- sell the Dolly and get a Ford instead!

Once I've seen your RS2000 Mk2 and how useful it is… I may just yet defect to the dark side

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by Alex E

I noticed in the (Goodwood 72nd...I think...) regs there is a restriction on tyre width versus wheel width. Difference can only be 40mm overall from memory......

The Goodwood regs were based on the CTCRC regs I think… therefore not the same as App K...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by AntA35

Once I've seen your RS2000 Mk2 and how useful it is… I may just yet defect to the dark side

there is no way an RS2 will develop anything like the power of a Dolomite in Gp1 trim, so will attempt to major on brakes and handling! Big advantage, apparent from this discussion and others, is availability of parts...

BTW the first ever episode of 'The Professionals' happened to be on last TV night. Forgot they had a Dolomite and TR7 to start with, although former looked like an HL, not Sprint.

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

there is no way an RS2 will develop anything like the power of a Dolomite in Gp1 trim, so will attempt to major on brakes and handling! Big advantage, apparent from this discussion and others, is availability of parts...

The 16v engine is the heart of the Dolomite performance and there is more to come. My pockets just aren't deep enough to get access to the full potential... this will require many development £'s although we know what needs to be done. We have moved the engine on though from where it left off and we've got some exciting results so far and the parts list for the internals is growing. Having said that decent blocks and heads are getting harder and harder to find now… I can see we'll be having to create new castings within 5 - 10 years.

We've just had a pattern made for casting new front discs as there were none anywhere to be found and so we're excited about what modern materials might do to improve the situation of what were otherwise pretty poor homologated brakes. The point being we're now manufacturing new parts so things are improving.

However the weight advantage of the RS2, availability of such a variety of parts and development of the pinto engine continuing to this day it sure bodes well for the future of the RS2. Get the thing handling and it might be a pocket rocket. What's the rear set up on the RS2? It's got to be better than the Dolly.

[Mike Bell]

I won't go into detail on suspension as already discussed on the 'leaf springs' thread. Am sure it bored everyone to tears on there!

I'd like to think that the engine will produced same power as in period. Most I've seen quoted for Gp1 spec Pinto is 175bhp.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I've thought of another solution- sell the Dolly and get a Ford instead!

Ant, if you're going to switch to the oval, the best bet might be a Sierra/Merkur Ti but that very car appears to be quite a controversial subject as to original eligibility in some parts!!!

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

there is no way an RS2 will develop anything like the power of a Dolomite in Gp1 trim, so will attempt to major on brakes and handling! Big advantage, apparent from this discussion and others, is availability of parts...

BTW the first ever episode of 'The Professionals' happened to be on last TV night. Forgot they had a Dolomite and TR7 to start with, although former looked like an HL, not Sprint.

Excellent! Yes I saw that too, even Cowley was in a Princess! Wonder what happened for the producers to cut and run to Henry, as I'm sure the white RS2000 and... a Mk2 Capri Ghia.... come in during that first series?

I digress...

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Ant, if you're going to switch to the oval, the best bet might be a Sierra/Merkur Ti but that very car appears to be quite a controversial subject as to original eligibility in some parts!!!

I'd love to run a Sierra/Merkur... Started looking in earnest for one a few years ago but didn't get very far. My father had one of the first XR4i's in the UK and I loved going in the car, despite it being a V6 and a mere 160bhp... It felt fast in the day.

However, I agree it seems the cut off for some series would exclude this really important car. I believe most of the cars were converted to Cosworth and RS500 spec, but would love to find one that wasn't.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by AntA35

I'd love to run a Sierra/Merkur... Started looking in earnest for one a few years ago but didn't get very far. My father had one of the first XR4i's in the UK and I loved going in the car, despite it being a V6 and a mere 160bhp... It felt fast in the day.

However, I agree it seems the cut off for some series would exclude this really important car. I believe most of the cars were converted to Cosworth and RS500 spec, but would love to find one that wasn't.

here's one...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3213262364...d=590226502431

[AntA35]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

here's one...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3213262364...d=590226502431

Thanks David... it needs to be an original GpA car really. I think an ICS/Rouse shell was found a couple of years ago, never did find out what happened to it.

[GORDON STREETER]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ouse%27s+XR4Ti
Here it is .
More than a couple of years ago !

[AntA35]

That's the one... blimey seems like yesterday that thread was a hot topic.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by AntA35

That's the one... blimey seems like yesterday that thread was a hot topic.

Crikey yes, and although I didn't remember it from that thread, it serves as a reminder that there's a ready supply of suitable engines to whoever can find a car to put them in!!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by chunterer

it serves as a reminder that there's a ready supply of suitable engines to whoever can find a car to put them in!!

Or there was! Come on James, you need to find out what happened to the car......

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Or there was! Come on James, you need to find out what happened to the car......

ah..... do I detect something about to materialise?