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Old 6 May 2008, 01:31 (Ref:2194806)   #51
stedevil
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Originally Posted by Speed-King
1.) I think he was refering to Gr. A as a S2000 predecessor
Which is what I replied to. At least I can't see any closer predessesor to the modern TC S2000 regs then the old Group A (DTM 84-92). Heavily modified (but within strict limits to keep down costs) production cars. Can you suggest a closer match?

And yes, meant to write purpose built race car, not GT. Getting to be too late to think 100% clearly

Last edited by stedevil; 6 May 2008 at 01:40.
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Old 10 May 2008, 04:49 (Ref:2197987)   #52
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[quote=Zamppa]How much has Audi been involved in the A4 S2000 cars, apart from the homologation? Are those cars factory built and have they been run by Audi at any point?quote]

Audi has never run those cars itself, but was pretty much involved in development.
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Old 10 May 2008, 08:02 (Ref:2198047)   #53
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Deutsche Productionwagen Meisterschaft was founded in 1984 because old DRM became a sports car championship and there was no place for Gr.A cars. In 1993 new technical regulations were set – Class 1 and Class 2 (and I think Class 2 was the basement for cheaper STW as to compare with DTM). And after the death of old DTM many teams had to make a step into STW to stay racing and preparing to reborn the series. There were 7 makes in STW. Since tragic events at Avus”98 (if I’m not mistaking) “safety” is the main idea for DMSB. And I think a big part of new DTM car cost goes to design/produce monocoque and other safety elements. Of course, I can mistake.
In the nearest future we’ll be able to know how much that aerodynamic bodies cost for MB and Audi. Motorsport-total says, Citroen spend 100 millions euro on rally program, and Audi spend only 40 millions on the season. And advertising payout in DTM is higher. From commercial point of view the answer for Citroen is evident.
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Old 12 May 2008, 11:14 (Ref:2199962)   #54
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The Avus accident you're referring to is probably the accident inwitch Keith O'Dor was killed. It was in 1995 in an STW-race, where he was hit on the passengerside when stationary in the middle of the track after a spinn. I think that whas the main reason to start thinking about closing the AVUS, and building the Lausitzring.
DTM hasn't raced at the AVUS-ring after 1995. Maybe because there were large accidents in those races aswell, the last one causing the last race not to be counted you can see at youtube
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Old 12 May 2008, 14:23 (Ref:2200182)   #55
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Citroen in DTM why ? rae they selling enough cars in Germany ? I prefered to see them in WTCC !
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Old 12 May 2008, 17:08 (Ref:2200294)   #56
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Originally Posted by stedevil
How can you say something as silly as DTM not being called DTM but STW and then say DTM was started up again?!?

The Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft (German Touring Car Championship, or DTM) was a touring car racing series held from 1984 to 1996.

And here you can find some videos from the time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUAE-819OG4

STW was run 94-99 and is something else...
I never said that. To me, the STW was far more a Super 2000 predecessor than the DTM; remember Group A -> Class 1 (DTM), and Class 2 -> Super Touring -> Super 2000. I would strongly disagree that Group A is more of a Super 2000 predecessor than Class 2, and even more that the following Class 1 was. And you don't need to correct me about the STW's history, I'm full aware of it...
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Old 12 May 2008, 22:22 (Ref:2200547)   #57
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson
I never said that. To me, the STW was far more a Super 2000 predecessor than the DTM; remember Group A -> Class 1 (DTM), and Class 2 -> Super Touring -> Super 2000. I would strongly disagree that Group A is more of a Super 2000 predecessor than Class 2, and even more that the following Class 1 was. And you don't need to correct me about the STW's history, I'm full aware of it...
Maybe I do need to correct you, because you seem to have missed the fact that Group A was the predessesor BOTH to class 1 and class 2. It's only when Group A was replaced by class 1 & 2 in 94 that DTM became class 1 and STW was created to fill up the class 2 spot.

So not only do we have
Group A (division2) -> class1
but also
Group A (division2) -> class2 -> S2000

So this whole controverys you are trying to create about class 2 being more of a predecessor to S2000 is pretty much a moot point... they belong to the same family evolution tree, Group A just predates class 2.
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Old 13 May 2008, 15:36 (Ref:2201276)   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stedevil
Maybe I do need to correct you, because you seem to have missed the fact that Group A was the predessesor BOTH to class 1 and class 2. It's only when Group A was replaced by class 1 & 2 in 94 that DTM became class 1 and STW was created to fill up the class 2 spot.

So not only do we have
Group A (division2) -> class1
but also
Group A (division2) -> class2 -> S2000

So this whole controverys you are trying to create about class 2 being more of a predecessor to S2000 is pretty much a moot point... they belong to the same family evolution tree, Group A just predates class 2.
I'll confess to not remembering that what became class 2 (Div.2) was a part of the Group A rules: my memory told me that Group A was only the top level cars with the Sierras, while there was M3's aplenty in Div.2.

Did the old DTM really spring out of Div.2? I was certain that it evolved out of Div.1 (if that's the proper name for it), not the Div.2 which became Class 2/Super Touring.
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Old 13 May 2008, 16:29 (Ref:2201323)   #59
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I thought the divisions were only used for separating engine sizes?
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Old 13 May 2008, 16:48 (Ref:2201340)   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson
I'll confess to not remembering that what became class 2 (Div.2) was a part of the Group A rules: my memory told me that Group A was only the top level cars with the Sierras, while there was M3's aplenty in Div.2.

Did the old DTM really spring out of Div.2? I was certain that it evolved out of Div.1 (if that's the proper name for it), not the Div.2 which became Class 2/Super Touring.
The old DTM did indeed spring out of both divisions of Gr.A as a handicap-system (weight, tyre-width, later air-restrictors) equalized the cars from both divisions so that they could compete against each other.
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Old 13 May 2008, 17:56 (Ref:2201389)   #61
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson
I'll confess to not remembering that what became class 2 (Div.2) was a part of the Group A rules: my memory told me that Group A was only the top level cars with the Sierras, while there was M3's aplenty in Div.2.

Did the old DTM really spring out of Div.2? I was certain that it evolved out of Div.1 (if that's the proper name for it), not the Div.2 which became Class 2/Super Touring.
Don't worry, I also needed to google to verify that I remembered correctly and to freshen up exactlyt what was the old cc limits of the various technical regulations. Too many changes through the years to remember all of them by heart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_A
"Group A consisted of three divisions, Division 3 - for cars over 2500cc, Division 2 - for car engine size that are between 1600-2500cc , Division 1 for cars that are less than 1600cc."

I guess the VERY big spread in performance you would get from the 1600-2500cc span did warrant for FIA to splitting it up into class 1 & 2. Unfortunately it also made both classes too weak to be able to survive on their own, and both the class 1 DTM & class 2 STW sort of collapsed after a few years.
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Old 13 May 2008, 19:43 (Ref:2201489)   #62
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FIA hadn't ruled DTM in 93 when new regulations were set. There were no Class1 races except DTM. Wasn't it only DTM (German) division?
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Old 21 May 2008, 20:27 (Ref:2208598)   #63
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Quesnel said,he would visit a WTCC event in the nearest future. Also he said,WRC has a priority for them. Nothing is clear.
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Old 25 May 2008, 17:28 (Ref:2211594)   #64
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DTM: Citroen say no to 2009 DTM entry

Looks like Citroen used DTM to put WRC organisers under pressure.
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Old 25 May 2008, 20:31 (Ref:2211697)   #65
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A 2009 entry would be fairly pointless anyway, with the new technical regulations set to arrive in 2010.
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Old 25 May 2008, 20:54 (Ref:2211711)   #66
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Indeed, any kind of realistic discussion would be for 2010 or later.
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Old 26 May 2008, 09:51 (Ref:2212031)   #67
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But 2010 is when the new WRC regulations come in, so surely that is when we'll see an improvement in the WRC. They were always going to stay in the WRC fornext year, they've got Loeb under contract and a ready built and developed car. There'd have been little sense changing championships then. But as the WRC regs change in 2010 and Peugeot already have a car built to new regs, Citroen will be looking what to do for then, not 2009.

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Old 26 May 2008, 12:34 (Ref:2212140)   #68
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Since when is the WRC switching to S2000 in 2010?

I hope thats a joke...?
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Old 26 May 2008, 13:04 (Ref:2212169)   #69
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The WRC is going to 4wd, turbo charged S2000 I believe. The idea being that it'll be easy for a team to turn a car from touring spec to rally spec, hoping this will lower development costs and we'll see more manufacturers and teams in both.
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Old 26 May 2008, 13:31 (Ref:2212181)   #70
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Originally Posted by awrb
The WRC is going to 4wd, turbo charged S2000 I believe. The idea being that it'll be easy for a team to turn a car from touring spec to rally spec, hoping this will lower development costs and we'll see more manufacturers and teams in both.
I've thought, the single common thing between ralle and circuit S2000 is engine - 2l naturally aspirated. Except 2WD S2000 rally cars - they may have common transmission.
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Old 26 May 2008, 14:32 (Ref:2212227)   #71
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S2000 cars for both rally and touring were going to be the same. However, WRC cars really need 4WD, and then the IRC proved that if they're going to be exciting to watch, they need more tourque, so a turbo's been added (which i think will be control). A larger rear wing than touring cars has also been added to 'make the car look more dramatic'. Apart from that the cars are the same.

So this also means that if Citroen did stay in the WRC post 2010, they could convert the car to WTCC regs by getting rid of the 4wd, taking out the turbo and reducing the size of the rear wing. This is much cheaper than building a new car, so could we see Citroen, Subaru, Ford and Suzuki moving into WTCC, and maybe SEAT and Chevrolet moving ointo the WTCC, boosting the manufacturer involvement in both of these series, which is what they both need.
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Old 26 May 2008, 18:38 (Ref:2212427)   #72
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Hmm, well if they are producing a "S2000-b" regulation spec, lets hope the cars have around 350BHP and turbos for both the WRC cars and the Touring spec cars too.

The current 280BHP S2000 cars can tend to look slow compared to the super touring cars of 8 years ago, I think another 70 or so BHP would help that.
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Old 26 May 2008, 19:21 (Ref:2212457)   #73
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S2000+ they're calling it, and no, it really is the same, and just for rallying, S2000's the same as it always has been for touring cars.

Apparently the + version will have standared turbo, gearbox and transmission, is this the case for the touring spec cars or are they produced by the team building the car?

I hope this will see a transfer of teams in the two championships. Even if it's just a private team buying a Rally car and turning it into a touring car or vice versa, it cuold get the diversity and entry levels both series need.

Now we just need someone who actually knows haow to promote these series and they could come big.
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Old 27 May 2008, 07:48 (Ref:2212779)   #74
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WRC won't be the same as normal S2000. They'll add various elements to it to enhance to the show. They believe that S2000 should be for the local rally's, but that a World Championship should offer something extra.

Maybe that's where it goes wrong a bit for WTCC, nothing extra to offer over the national championships
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Old 27 May 2008, 12:55 (Ref:2212990)   #75
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I don't know if that hurts a lot. Let's take an example from another sport. In the Championsleague, they don't use a bigger ball, or 12 players/team, and still, it attracts a larger interest over national championships.
Having said that, people do not only watch motorsports for the drivers, but also for the cars. While I doubt people go to a soccerstadium to see the newest balls.
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