[Rumours] Belgian GP to be axed

[jab]

Circuit reopens in time for the Spa 6 Hours, and there will be more talks next week with the locals

I wouldn't be too worried about this. I'd be more worried about the Walloons and the funding

[duke_toaster]

Could the federal government bail it out if need be? A title sponsor might be a Brucie Bonus ...

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Why don't these locals sod off and buy a house elsewhere?

I would hazard a guess not many of them have been there longer than the circuit.

"locals" is a loose term in this matter. one of the founders of the group that filed the complaint, lives ni Sanct Vith, 10kms from the circuit.


*edit* after some more "research", it turns out the group doesn't have a problem with the races and such. their problem was with the rise of "incentives" (test days, track days, ...), which has exploded since the license was renewed. the old license concerned the weekends + some exceptions during the week. the new one is a more global, allowing far more track time during the week. the group just wants to see (hear?) less track day/ mid-week incentives, but due to the nature of the new license, court was forced to ban the racing if they wanted to ban the incentives. they couldn't do one without the other.

this of course means Spa could get a license for the races, and a seperate one for the incentives

[strider]

Originally Posted by marcel82

"locals" is a loose term in this matter. one of the founders of the group that filed the complaint, lives in Sanct Vith, 10kms from the circuit.

*edit* after some more "research", it turns out the group doesn't have a problem with the races and such. their problem was with the rise of "incentives" (test days, track days, ...), which has exploded since the license was renewed. the old license concerned the weekends + some exceptions during the week. the new one is a more global, allowing far more track time during the week. the group just wants to see (hear?) less track day/ mid-week incentives, but due to the nature of the new license, court was forced to ban the racing if they wanted to ban the incentives. they couldn't do one without the other.

this of course means Spa could get a license for the races, and a separate one for the incentives

This is actually good news, because it means there is room for negotiation.

What it doesn't do is help the circuit promoters in finding the wherewithal to pay for the Grand Prix.

[Happy Snapper]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Why don't these locals sod off and buy a house elsewhere?

I would hazard a guess not many of them have been there longer than the circuit.

I thought that the poison dwarf was the only person who own a house "on" the circuit, just up at Le Source and circuit management company or something was in his (ex) wife's name?

[Kazan]

Originally Posted by marcel82

*edit* after some more "research", it turns out the group doesn't have a problem with the races and such. their problem was with the rise of "incentives" (test days, track days, ...), which has exploded since the license was renewed. the old license concerned the weekends + some exceptions during the week. the new one is a more global, allowing far more track time during the week. the group just wants to see (hear?) less track day/ mid-week incentives, but due to the nature of the new license, court was forced to ban the racing if they wanted to ban the incentives. they couldn't do one without the other.

I must say the reading of this post makes much more sense than some reactions on other forums, where interpretation of the court ruling went much out of course.
As you mentioned, neither F1 nor any major events are at stake in that decision, but the increasing use of the circuit on week days for “incentives”. Already a meeting was prompted yesterday between the lawyers of the association of petitioners and the management of the circuit (indeed, an association of boroughs), to reach a compromise about measures for the future, as should always be the case whenever any kind of nuisance affects some residents. At Francorchamps, the problem being the noise level on week days, in the absence of any regulation whatsoever.
The ruling having been made by the State Council, that is the administrative high court, all it did was to revoke the exploiting licence that had been provided a couple of years ago by the regional government. That ruling being grounded on the fact that the compulsory study of environmental incidence had been “seriously insufficient”.
That leading to aberrations, since many read it wrongly as a ban on all activities on the circuit until 2026!!!… Should there be anyone to blame, I would personally point to the regional minister who acted hastily, under the urge of securing the F1 come-back after Ecclestone’s casual blackmailing. The issue being put again in the hands of the regional authorities, to establish another permit, certainly more carefully thought over, since it will involve preliminary negotiations with the residents.
Anyhow, since the ruling of the administrative court has not been so far combined with any claim for damages before a general court, there is no infringement penalty, which means all races in the calendar may be maintained.
As to the cost of running a F1 race for organizers, with as a consequence a totally prohibitive entrance ticket, it would surprise me if Francorchamps was the only place where such event would come very much beyond budget. This being a case for vital consideration about Ecclestone’s views on F1: how is it that LMS or FIA-GT do manage properly without facing such issues? In a world where the gap is ever increasing between the rich and the poor, it is clear that Bernie - the mentioned luxury hotel being a side-effect of such a policy – has for long followed his own course…

[Andrew2001]

Yep it ain't Max, and Bononi, I am right behind you when it comes to blaming Max hehe.
It is those people that complain for the sake of complaining. Whether it be a race track or an aerodrome, or anything that people who enjoy living have anything to do with. I feel deeply sorry and regretful that these sad excuses for human beings have to exist within the ranks of the majority who actually enjoy and live life.

Can't there be a seperate planet for such souls whom insist on ruining everyone else's fun? Just think, they would have a field day complaining about each other's complaints, fantastic fun for all of their likeminded neighbours.
While people like us fly, ride jet skis or drive nice cars or get behind fast and exciting motorsports.

Moderators, that was a VERY toned down version of what I really wanted to write hehe I just love to have a stab at tree huggers.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Happy Snapper

I thought that the poison dwarf was the only person who owns a house "on" the circuit, just up at Le Source and circuit management company or something was in his (ex) wife's name?

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I have been thinking for a while that at one time the person you mention had a stake in the ownership of the circuit or at least some involvement.

It must have been quite a while ago now, though, and he's definitely not the sort to get sentimental over anything, even if it is the best drivers' circuit in Europe.

[ChrisA]

If it is true, its a bloody shame, as a crowd of us, marshals, were thinking of going there either 2010 or 2011 and flying the flag.

[strider]

Here's a nice piece of logic from Joe Saward:

Spa-Francorchamps circuit – traditional home to the Belgian Grand Prix – has run into trouble with noise and is reported to have had its licence suspended following an investigation into noise level. It seems that some local residents have complained about the noise.

This is, of course, insane. The Spa- Francorchamps circuit has existed since 1923 so no-one who has bought a house in the area can really claim not to have known that there would be noise from the racing cars. If they do not like noise then they bought a house in the wrong place.

[Armco Bender]

I dont think GP's should be held in any country that puts mayonnaise on its chips.

[Super Hans]

I'd love to live next to a race circuit. I've actually just bought a house by a rugby ground. If I hear rugby fans cheering of a sunday I'm going to demand that all egg-chasing activity is suspended immediately.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I dont think GP's should be held in any country that puts mayonnaise on its chips.

lmao That reminds me of James Allen so enthusiastically talking about that very subject before the Belgium GP last year

Selby

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I dont think GP's should be held in any country that puts mayonnaise on its chips.

Oh, it's on now.
The gloves are off!

[blaffer]

Bernie today repeated his intention to remove Spa-Francorchamps from the calendar.

Just a matter of time, I'm afraid.

[Born Racer]

WHAT AN UTTERLY PATHETIC THING TO DO TO F1.

[Born Racer]

Hopefully it's just the usual haggling over a deal that will get his company even more money and impoverish the circuit.

[Jamesy-18]

I hope it's not true. F1 has too many bad tracks currently to lose a good one like Spa.

Bernie wants to go to the middle East, or Russia, or wherever, and away from the traditional fan base to a crappy street track. Why doesn't he just retire and take his money with him? :P

[chillibowl]

im guessing its the usual "every track that doesn't pay is in jeopardy" type comment.

but that said, im uncertain why we would think that someone else would do things differently.
even if we put in the world biggest race fan in charge, the basic realities of global economics will ultimately set in... either they are generating huge sums of money for the teams, for the sponsors, and for the bankers or they get replaced by them. its why Bernie is still there and why the next person who gets the job will only be a greedier version of the guy we have now.

other than that i was under the impression Spa has been declining in terms of attendance. obviously ticket prices dont help matters but with so many races (both F1 and other more moderately priced series) in Europe and the ease of travel within said continent wont the European F1 races which survive this culling be in better shape with less competition each year?

im not advocating losing Spa, but i can think of a couple of other European venues which i could live without...incidentally they are both in Spain

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

im guessing its the usual "every track that doesn't pay is in jeopardy" type comment.

That is the sort of thing we have come to expect.

but that said, im uncertain why we would think that someone else would do things differently.
even if we put in the world biggest race fan in charge, the basic realities of global economics will ultimately set in... either they are generating huge sums of money for the teams, for the sponsors, and for the bankers or they get replaced by them. its why Bernie is still there and why the next person who gets the job will only be a greedier version of the guy we have now.

The huge sums of money aren't going near the teams, CVC are creaming about 50% of the money off before it gets to the teams. What it appears they are doing is sacrificing all other revenue streams for sanctioning fees to host events.

other than that i was under the impression Spa has been declining in terms of attendance.

I don't have figures, but a figure of 60,000 is one and a half times the capacity of the circuit in Bahrain. It's the flyaways in non-motorsport countries (I.E. the flyaways outside the Americas, Australia and Japan) that are having the attendance issues.

but with so many races (both F1 and other more moderately priced series) in Europe

Are there really that many races in Europe? Next year 60% of the races will be flyaways (i.e. outside the EEA and European microstates). In 1995 this was 35%. The reason for the number of races is because Europe (if you treat it as one market, which it isn't really) is where the largest concentration of F1-type motorsport fans are, those races have been the bedrock of motorsport since before the days of F1, and for that reason (or perhaps they caused each other, but that is a chicken and egg scenario to be discussed elsewhere).

im not advocating losing Spa, but i can think of a couple of other European venues which i could live without...incidentally they are both in Spain

I agree with you on those two circuits (Motorland for the Spanish GP, I reckon ) I can also think of some non-European venues I could live without. Where do the sponsors of the teams want a race more - Sweden/the USA/France or Bahrain?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The huge sums of money aren't going near the teams, CVC are creaming about 50% of the money off before it gets to the teams. What it appears they are doing is sacrificing all other revenue streams for sanctioning fees to host events.

Agreed and the teams are lucky if they get that. CVC is a problem and unfortunately when they have written off enough of the F1 debt they will repackage those loans and sell them off to another bank and they will in turn be forced to squeeze more and more money out of F1. BE might have allowed this to happen but the reality from now one is that the position of F1 promoter is and will forever be held by a paid employee of some faceless bank.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I don't have figures, but a figure of 60,000 is one and a half times the capacity of the circuit in Bahrain. It's the flyaways in non-motorsport countries (I.E. the flyaways outside the Americas, Australia and Japan) that are having the attendance issues.

60,000 seems low for an event of this scale particularly in the western world. Bahrain or Yas Marina can afford to have low attendance through subsidies, but Spa which relies (and cares about how its used) on public money to pay the fees need to be able to attract a lot more than 60k to be viable. Montreal for example brought in over 115,000 and 300,000 plus over the weekend and still they with their reduced fees they have trouble making ends meet.

personally that leads me to believe there is a lot of corruption and siphoning of public money going on but that’s just conjecture. However for a host which has a facility which has more than paid for itself over the course time (30plus years and longer for Spa) and an inbuilt reputation for excitement should have no problem of attracting people and turning a profit.

maybe I just need to hear a better answer than “BE just asks for too much money” because 115,000 paying on around $350-400 each or there abouts for a weekend pass equals at least twice to three times the reported sanctioning fees. factor in food, concessions, merchandise etc etc F1 should be a cash cow for the hosts. That it is not is a mystery to me.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Are there really that many races in Europe? Next year 60% of the races will be flyaways (i.e. outside the EEA and European microstates).

I guess not anymore, whether we like it or not it is what has already happened. Joe Saward (obviously) has some interesting thoughts on it near the end of this recent article. here.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Where do the sponsors of the teams want a race more - Sweden/the USA/France or Bahrain?

sadly i would think Bahrain. business trip paid for by your company to a land of excess where western business men get everything they want and they even get to hit up some duty free shopping for the kiddies on their way back home via direct flights to almost anywhere in the world courtesy of Emarites Airlines.

[Wims]

Sweden doesnt have a race track capable of hosting an F1 race and I seriously doubt that anyone would want to fork up $300mm to build one. In Bahrain they were willing to do that.

[dyewat808]

Well this says it all from Bernie:

“They’ve built an incredible circuit and it might even be the best — but there’s not much enthusiasm from the public. I don’t know why.”

I can bet that most of the people on this forum could answer that question.

It's because they're not interested. The only people interested are those who will make him money. Its nice that he wants to expand. But what he's getting is short-term expansion. The Middle-East and Asia may well be burgeoning economies now, but when they realise no-one is interested, and their growth slows, then they might simply say no.

[wnut]

If holding a GP is such a cash cow please explain how the Australian Grand Prix cost the taxpayers $49 million dollars to cover the loss made by the GP.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Wims

Sweden doesnt have a race track capable of hosting an F1 race and I seriously doubt that anyone would want to fork up $300mm to build one. In Bahrain they were willing to do that.

What grade will Gotland Ring be when it's finished? Besides, I said Sweden as an off the top of my head country in Europe with a motorsport tradition but no Grand Prix. It could apply to France or Finland.