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Old 12 Jan 2005, 15:47 (Ref:1199044)   #1
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Originally Posted by Flaming_Wuzzle
I'd say this should be in Parc Ferme. My Tracks was meant for trackmaking stuff, not to have our own separate section to do whatever we wanted with.
Ah, but wasn't there a debate about whether or not "off topic" postings would be allowed? -
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Originally Posted by the_royksopp
(22 Dec 2004) We should be allowed to post offtopic in this forum, as we have done over the years in the thread, without all our posts being moved to PF or somewhere else, in order to keep the MyTracks-community alive.

...it is VERY important that we still get the rights to post offtopic.
Suggest you discuss it among yourselves (in a thread, or by PM) and appoint a "spokesperson" for the group.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 16:06 (Ref:1199055)   #2
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FW, to keep the community alive and well, we are allowed to post OT .
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 16:42 (Ref:1199077)   #3
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Annoyed? What's the point?

Once I took early retirement I thought GREAT! I'll be able to do all the things I wanted to do when working but couldn't.

What really annoys me is that I can't!

What also used to annoy me were petty jobs-worth who are always finding fault and whinging.

I now just walk away.......................................................................
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 17:34 (Ref:1199106)   #4
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I have say, I do agree that this thread does belong in PF.
This place could very easily become another parc ferme with a few tracks in it if we're not careful.
And the level of 'off-topicness' at the moment is higher than it ever was in the thread.
Off-topic stuff tended to extend from track making stuff.

Off topic 'rights' in here, yes, but not too much IMO.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:09 (Ref:1199131)   #5
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Agree with you, Pirenzo. All off topic threads should be moved to Parc Ferme IMO. Off topic banter within a thread is fine up until a point. But any topics that are started as 'off topic' are a step too far if you ask me. I'll leave it for the bosses to decide however.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:17 (Ref:1199134)   #6
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Agree with pirenzo.

But Craig, we cant have as tight rules inhere as we have on the rest of Tenths. Honestly, i think Tenths sometimes leaves too little room for freedom of posting.

Yea, we should have Offtopic inhere, but there should be a limit. I already sent my idea to MagnetON of how we can solve this problem.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:24 (Ref:1199142)   #7
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Not sure why - it's worked out fine in all the other forums - but I'll leave my input on the matter at that.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:25 (Ref:1199144)   #8
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It's not that we've got that many OT threads. Actually only this one. Both the Canoe-polo thread, the What do you do-thread and the merry-xmas-thread would have been posted of some note in the "old" MyTracks-thread. The Helmets-thread i feel belong inhere, because this is somewhat of an art forum. The Computer-game thread is not offtopic at all, and neither is the similarities-thread. This is a discussion forum of and for tracks, not a showroom .
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:27 (Ref:1199146)   #9
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Its a fine line to draw.
This thread, is not in any way MT related, whereas the 'idea for a game' one is.
The original MT thread would go way OT from time to time, but not in a PF type way, it would normally be a sort of idle chatter while we 'waited' for the next person to post their newest track. There would also be a lot of chat around F1, and other racing in general, particularly after a Grand Prix.
The main concern with this is these threads have no limit, they can just run and run, and stop tracks discussion. In the thread, all off-topic discussion would be halted normally by someone posting a new track, removing the need for off-topic at the time.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:29 (Ref:1199150)   #10
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Craig, the reason is, that this is very much a side-community of Tenths. Many of us dont get outta' here, in the sense of going to other parts of Tenths. I, for my part, almost only post inhere, and occasionally in PF.

This sub-forum was originally a thread - the MyTracks-thread, a place where we had a thriving mini-community where we discussed offtopic things aswell. Now, when we were made into a forum (totally without our advice or any notice), we were immediately afraid, that our community would die out, and that this would be more of a clinical track discussion. Therefore, we were promised, that we would still have the rights to post offtopic to some extent.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:30 (Ref:1199153)   #11
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Exactly, P. That's why i am so much against this thread. Because this 'side-chatting' isnt really possible here .
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 18:48 (Ref:1199173)   #12
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I've split this thread leaving the original off topic stuff in Parc Ferme and the discussion regarding the My Tracks forum back in My Tracks.

This should avoid any confusion about what is being discussed where.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 19:21 (Ref:1199219)   #13
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If I could just make a couple of comments here. There are a number of forums on tenths that have their own little communities.

The Marshals Forum is a good example of a happy medium between having your own community and having it overrun with off topic threads. The biggest problem with too much off topic is the forum becomes very cliquey and you stand little chance of gaining new members who will be put off by too much non-tracks related chatting.

Leaving aside the technical aspect of a thread as large as the old My Track thread (which as we explained, had reached the limits of what this software can do without causing problems).

This is a new forum and still finding its feet and discussion about what's appropriate is welcome. But do bear in mind that this forum is still part of Ten Tenths and as such, has to adhere to the basic rules that apply to all forums here. I know it's been suggested that a new forum be set up elsewhere to get around that - and I suppose that's up to you - but it's not going to actually change anything. You won't find any BB software out there - free or commercial - that is going to support one thread of the size you've been using. So you'll still have a forum - just like you do now - but without the technical resources or user base of Tenths.

A long rambling thread with so many posts is one that doesn't welcome new blood or new ideas. The idea of entering a thread with thousands of posts is extremely daunting for someone - not to mention the fact that they're going to have to spend hours - or even days in some cases - reading everything to avoid repeating something that's already been said.

With a properly organised forum, you can expand your group to welcome new people.

As for not venturing into other forums - I think that's a terrible shame. You're losing out on the opportunity to meet lots of motorsport minded people who can probably give you lots of valuable experience of tracks past and present - and even future - along with the chance to discover whole new areas of motorsport you may never have known about before.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 20:59 (Ref:1199308)   #14
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My Opinion

Well, here we go.

First I'd like to say that I really do appreciate what our Administrators have done for us-they've been innovative and giving for us-what with our new subforum and all. However, I agree with tr's point that they had pretty much gone along with this without much input from more than one participant in the original thread.

No problem, it's been done, we can work it out-so here's what I have to say.

I do not believe off-topic postings should be allowed (at least in the way this afternoon's has).
I say this because in the original thread, anything off topic was generally allowed because it was almost always put in as a "P.S.:", or similar-the topic, trackmaking and discussion, always came first. With examples like today's though, a random, completely unrelated (Parc Ferme-style) topic was introduced. This makes for an awkward and confusing environment. Thus, I believe solely O/T topics shouldn't be allowed in the My Tracks subforum-but perhaps still allowed as sidenotes in the original and other threads.

However, noting Terri's concerns above, I do think that "My Tracks" should keep its own little area. She is right that it is more welcoming here for new people and that it, although spread out more, is organized.

On the subject of "outsiders"-I suggest we set up an FAQ/Ask your own questions thread so those new to the area can determine, without "invading" threads with O/T questions or whatever, what is allowed here and what isn't-like the Netiquette link for Parc Ferme.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 21:03 (Ref:1199316)   #15
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whoa didnt realise all this comotion would come over this geez, erm yer it should be in parc ferme and after i posted i was thinking i should ave said mods please move but i was kinda in a rush sorry for any inconvience.
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 21:03 (Ref:1199317)   #16
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Now. This is a mess. I must say, i'm getting sick and tired of the way things are developing. The whole princip about outsiders, who comes ind and starts taking control and taking decisions is bad. Compare it in some ways to an invasion of a country.

No, i'm not comparing the Tenths staff to a militant nation, but i just want to turn attention to the lack of staff-user dialogue here at Tenths - or at least on the part of Tenths i know off. There are thousands of examples out there, that a close dialogue is always the better. And that is not at all what we've seen here.

What we're seeing here is a peaceful community that existed within itself, both before and right after the new sub-forum status, being overrun by people from other places who has got influence on the way things happen in here. Now that to me is totally wrong. If we are going to have our own forum here, we are going to decide. Or at least, get asked.

I am still surprised and horrified, that we were not even asked or confronted with the fact, that our community was about to be shaken up by people who have nothing to do with the community. That is very undemocratic, and it is an example of that top-to-bottom hieraky, that clearly exists here at Tenths, and that i've come to see and realise during this proces.

All of this turmoil in this forum makes me feel bad. It could all have been avoided if we had been included in the proces of making this sub-forum. That way, we could together, users and admins, have found where to cut the line in this forum. Instead, it became just a decision from the top, kinda like if i became a moderator in the ChampCar forum (which i dont know anything about ).

Now, some of you might say that decisions like that should not be discussed, and that too much dialogue will only hamper the decision process. On that, you're partially right, but only partially. I've experienced a situation like this, on a major danish language forum, which eventually led to very unhappy users, and eventually a mass-emigration from the forum. Now, i'm not saying that this is in danger of happening at Tenths. Because, despite all i've stated above, i still respect Tenths for being a unique, and very very great messageboard with no equals in the F1-world. I'm just reminding you, that you should not forget the users in all of this.

Now, that was the torrent of words (), lets turn attention back to the specific case - the MyTracks forum. I must say, that i've got extraordinarily mixed feelings about this. Yes, i see the point of a possible expansion and bloom inhere, and there is ofcourse also the technical part of it, that the MB is not able to handle such large threads.

But this has been done all wrong. As pirenzo stated above, the offtopic in the 'old MyTracks thread' was more of a sidetalk, and chit-chatter (is that an expression? ) between the more on-topic action. This is almost impossible to do in the new forum. But still, it's necessary.

We cannot make offtopic posting fully illegal, because that would destroy the side-community completely, making some kind of a boring, clinical showroom. But we cannot make offtopic fully legal, because that would make this forum very very closed, and very internal, and that's not in the interest of either users or the Tenths staff.

Now, i suggest this: We point ot a workgroup (i know this is probably something totally new, but not everything can be done simple and easy), consisting of atleast one of the current mods inhere (Ayse or Hobson), one or two from the Tenths staff, and two or three from our ranks, the users here.

Bear in mind, that this is Tenths' golden chance to show and proove that the users have a say, and that there is a dialogue going on here. To show, that this is not some tight-fitted top-to-bottom-controlled forum, but more of a free place, where solutions will be found where ever solutions are needed, by whatever means necessary, ofcourse, under certain circumstances. I understand, that the users cannot have fully free roaming, i'm all against that, that would seriously make the MB worse, but there should be a dialogue going on. And in fact, i dont doubt that this dialogue between users and staff is going on in other parts of Tenths. We just need it to get going here too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin
I know it's been suggested that a new forum be set up elsewhere to get around that - and I suppose that's up to you - but it's not going to actually change anything. You won't find any BB software out there - free or commercial - that is going to support one thread of the size you've been using. So you'll still have a forum - just like you do now - but without the technical resources or user base of Tenths.
And without the limits of Tenths . No, seriously (and i'm the one who mentioned this scenario as an option), i would hate to see that happen, because i love to be here, and i believe, that if we do this right, we could make this a thriving place for the track-designing community, perhaps even more thriving than before. But if we're enforced a clinical, anonymous showroom, i would seriously consider doing what mentioned above. Though, i dont think this is really an issue, since i cant believe that no changes will be made here - to the better or worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin
As for not venturing into other forums - I think that's a terrible shame. You're losing out on the opportunity to meet lots of motorsport minded people who can probably give you lots of valuable experience of tracks past and present - and even future - along with the chance to discover whole new areas of motorsport you may never have known about before.
I do not intend to expand my adventure on Tenths, as i do not have the time. I am co-founding crewmember of one of the largest danish-language motorsports websites, and thus, that is where i do my 'ordinary' debating. I have to, and love to, come here to discuss tracks, as this is the only real tracks-discussion forum around. Atleast that i know of.

Now, i know that some of you might see this as somewhat of a torrent on everyone and everything involved in Tenths, but it is just a suggestion as to how we can make MyTracks better, and make it a role model for other thriving side-communities around, both on Tenths, and on the big wide web .
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 21:05 (Ref:1199321)   #17
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Oh i totally forgot. Yes, i agree that this thread is too offtopic .
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 21:19 (Ref:1199333)   #18
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It actually seems everyone is in agreement - you're just disagreeing about how you agree!
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Old 12 Jan 2005, 22:48 (Ref:1199422)   #19
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Ok first and foremost, please read the FAQ. Once you do, maybe you'll grasp the concept that this forum is part of a community.

If I decide to start a commune in a country, I don't get to decide that I can ignore the law of the land within my commune because it doesn't suit me. The situation is no different here. The rules of Tenths have been in place ever since the site started and they apply to everyone equally.

As for consulation with the users, we consult as much as is possible on a site with over 14,000 users. This is not a democracy. It's a website. A website that is paid for and run by volunteers who don't deserve to be described as though they're jackbooted Nazis. I feel the comments are particularly unfair as I know that MagnetOn has spent a great deal of time discussing the development of the forum with you by PM and now you speak as though no-one has spoken with you at all which is not the case.
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Old 13 Jan 2005, 12:20 (Ref:1199784)   #20
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I've read all of this and it's getting pretty hot....All I can say IMHO is that as an individual consumed by motorsport passion, I am extremely glad and grateful to find in Ten Tenths the possibility to both read the opinions of others and express my views. It is like going to an enormous pub to discuss sports related issues and it is refreshing and likeable. However, when I go to that pub to discuss what I like, it never crosses my mind to jump on the counter and shout. There are rules everywhere, which I am obviously willing to accept if I decide to attend a public place. Otherwise I stay home and I make my own set of rules. It's just a question of manners and respect for others. If I have to go somewhere where I know they won't let me smoke, I can decide to go and not smoke or stay home and smoke as much as I like, but I will not show up and light a cigarette. There's a sizeable difference between rights and privileges.
Furthermore what's nice about Ten Tenths is that it is not a closed community but it is based on the fact that everyone may join. If it were to become a collection of closed communities, it would not serve the original purpose I guess.
So I do not agree with the way things have been described by royksopp nor do I think that it has been done in a proper manner. People come here in good spirits to discuss about their passions and showing the guys who make it possible the finger is only going to make them lose the motivation and ultimately to shut down the forum.
Is this what some people want? This is a playground for adults and I like it and therefore I'd like to keep playing in it. Those who don't can always find another one.
Thank to MagnetOn and EvilPumpkin for organizing and managing the Playground with passion.
I hope you all will excuse my french. Sometimes the steam has to blow.
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Old 13 Jan 2005, 16:33 (Ref:1199977)   #21
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Yes, i do respect the work that MagnetON and the rest of the staff do. I know how tough it can be to run a website, and i think you guys are doing a great job.

Now, by using the word "community" some of you might get the misinterpretation, that it is to be a closed club. That was not my intention. You must remember, that english is not my native tongue, and thus i maybe sometimes without knowing it, express myself unclear and harsher than my intentions .

But the fact is, that MyTracks is not fully integrated into Tenths, and will probably never be. And honestly, as we had a lot of offtopic-posting in MyTracks, i cant see the problem.

I get the feeling, that because i dont venture out to the rest of Tenths, i am not granted the same rights to discuss these matters. I cannot understand how some of you can mention it as a necessity for me, to venture into the rest of Tenths. I have not got the time and interest, but i still feel i've got the rights to discuss these matters. I'm a veteran, with over a thousand posts in this forum alone, but anyhow, i get the feeling that my words are not taken as seriously as if Trev or Pirenzo, or someone else more involved in the "bigger" Tenths posted what i posted (no offense ).

But the truth is, that many of us only take part in this forum (Lustig, CG, freak, FW, myself and some others), and thus should not be forced into expanding our ventures into Tenths, only so people would take us serious.

But i'm getting tired of this wrangling, it does not lead to anything, so heres the deal for you:

We should NOT be allowed to post directly offtopic topics, but we SHOULD be allowed to run on-topic threads offtopic, without them being moved to PF or other places.

Is that agreeable?

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Old 13 Jan 2005, 22:16 (Ref:1200306)   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_royksopp
But the fact is, that MyTracks is not fully integrated into Tenths
Yes it is. Stop thinking we're a separate entity from 10/10ths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_royksopp
But the truth is, that many of us only take part in this forum (Lustig, CG, freak, FW, myself and some others)
Speak for yourself, I'm on the other forums as well.

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Old 13 Jan 2005, 23:26 (Ref:1200344)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_royksopp
But the fact is, that MyTracks is not fully integrated into Tenths, and will probably never be. And honestly, as we had a lot of offtopic-posting in MyTracks, i cant see the problem.
It is fully integrated into 10-10ths, as far as I am concerned anyway. If you mean its still 'developing' shall we say, then yes it is, I believe that is what MagnetON intends for the moment, as we all discussed when the sub-forum was set up.

Quote:
I get the feeling, that because i dont venture out to the rest of Tenths, i am not granted the same rights to discuss these matters. I cannot understand how some of you can mention it as a necessity for me, to venture into the rest of Tenths. I have not got the time and interest, but i still feel i've got the rights to discuss these matters. I'm a veteran, with over a thousand posts in this forum alone, but anyhow, i get the feeling that my words are not taken as seriously as if Trev or Pirenzo, or someone else more involved in the "bigger" Tenths posted what i posted (no offense ).
I think the point is you can't have your own 'bubble' because you do want to participate in the other forums. If you want unlimited off-topic, there's always been a very friendly and lively place called Parc Ferme a couple of doors up. Seriously, you'd enjoy it

To be perfectly honest, My Tracks is a broad enough title for it to not need off-topic exclusions of any kind, IMO. Most of what we might have considered a bit OT, was always on-topic in a way...
My Tracks could encompass everything from tracks themselves, track safety, how we all draw our tracks, the people who design the tracks, "did you see this at such-and-such a track, I think that corner ought to be redesigned" and so on.
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Old 13 Jan 2005, 23:56 (Ref:1200379)   #24
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I think what TR is getting at is that this has been something of its own community away from Ten-Tenths proper in atmosphere even if it is a forum within this larger conglomeration. Having injections of "fresh blood" is a healthy thing, but we want to maintain this community, not be overwhelmed by external influences.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 08:30 (Ref:1200618)   #25
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Sorry guys, newsflash. This forum is part of Tenths and the advertising revenue from the rest of Tenths is what pays for it.

If it wasn't for the high volumes of traffic to the other areas of the site, this forum wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be enough money to keep it online.

It if wasn't for the high profile of Tenths, most of you probably wouldn't even have found it.

The community as it stands owes its existence to Tenths. I suggest that is something to bear in mind when referring to "external influences" - because if it wasn't for Tenths, you would never have had this community in the first place.
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