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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:08 (Ref:3755142)   #26
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There's been too many proposals of new LMP1 manufacturers that haven't happened. We need to find a way to make it cost sustainable so these manufacturers can go through with their plans
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:12 (Ref:3755145)   #27
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Fan Boost barely affects the race, really. I would like to see it being ditched though.
But instead, there are more series adopting it, Stock Car Brasil now has the Hero Push, where you vote for 3 drivers to get one extra push-to-pass.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:16 (Ref:3755148)   #28
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I may be 30 years old, but I don't get a lot of this green push. EVs are immature, new technology, with some big bugs that need worked out. That's why we have hybrids, in an attempt to overcome the shortcomings of both the ICE (emissions and fuel economy) and EVs (range and performance) until pure EVs can be made to work.

I want road relevancy as much as anyone else, but I also feel that if it can't be put to use soon after it's demonstrated on track, it's sort of useless. DFI ended up on VAG cars soon after Audi won LM in '01. Within a few years everyone and their brother was offering up turbocharged DFI cars.

Mind you, anything that can help the environment and conserve resources can only be a good thing in my mind. But you can't push a technology that clearly isn't ready for prime time yet, be it in racing or the real world. Which is why I think the ACO should push for renewable biofuels or synthetic fuels.

IMO, they pushed the hybrid stuff too hard, too fast, and initially gave teams only about three years to get there. Not to mention my feelings on the ERS incentive, meaning what the ACO originally said (all ERS classes roughly equal) vs what was delivered (huge incentive to run 6-8MJ).

In fact in part 2 of DSC's piece on the future of the LM24 and the WEC, one DSC writer last fall after Audi Sport announced their pull out, asked Lindsay Owen-Jones (who the ACO put in charge of the WEC's Endurance Committee) if the ACO made an error in doing things they way they did and how they did it, and if if presented a road block to teams entering LMP1.

Owen-Jones answer, essentially, was that it might have. And I can't fault him, because I agree with that assessment.

Best thing IMO that the ACO can do is maybe give into Peugeot's demands, as much as I see them as a dumbing down of the current rules. Put a hard cap on MJ categories, or make the lower categories more equal to the higher ones. Allow factory teams to either develop their own cars or base one off of one of the new LMP1 privateer chassis. Hell, even go back to running air restrictors instead of fuel flow meters if need be.

At this stage, if it reduces costs, generates interest, and provides close racing, we should be for it--provided that it has the potential to achieve that.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:16 (Ref:3755149)   #29
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Fan boost is the kind of the thing that would look great....in an arcade console racing game that is. And even then there should be an option to turn it off.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:22 (Ref:3755153)   #30
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Yes, it sorta ruins the great concept that is Formula E, no skill involved
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:32 (Ref:3755158)   #31
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Also, in addition to FE being there for PR value and being cheap, GT racing efforts have expanded. Audi Sport seem to be throwing a lot more at their GT3 program than they have before, and the have the RS3 touring car program.

Porsche will probably also throw more into the GT3 ring as well. BMW outside of Formula E is big on GT racing, and Mercedes-Benz/Mercedes-AMG have been placing more emphasis on GT racing in recent times, too.

With GT racing, car makers can race high end cars that they're selling now to do the "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" mantra. Especially as the stuff on those GT cars does trickle down to even their lesser road cars. even family sedans.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:38 (Ref:3755162)   #32
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Not to get too far off in the weeds here with Formula E, which does apply to this convo to a certain degree, but electric cars, in reality, aren't the answer to an alternate of fossil fuels unless charged from a renewable source. They somewhat mention it here,

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...free-charging/

but shipping a mobile charging station half way around the world at the cost of how many liters/gallons of diesel? Then add in the batteries and how awful they are to produce. It's a good try...sort of not really.

When it gets down to it, electric is far too experimental for LMP1 to even begin to consider it. Not even close to a decade. Panoz have come up with something radical, but I don't see it as sustainable (for motor racing).

So electric cars are less bad, but they are the most advanced form of alternate transportation, ATM, and that's where manufacture's see the market going, as unfortunate as it is, so that's where they want to put in efforts.

Yes, I'm part enviro whacko, the son of a tree hugging lumberjack
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 17:44 (Ref:3755164)   #33
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Six quick thoughts:

1. The ACO and FIA WEC essentially told manufacturers to go big (technology and budget) or go home. Now that three of the manufacturers involved have decided to go home, the question is what comes next. And let’s not forget, that the WEC is a championship designed to meet the wants and needs of manufacturers.

2. The ACO and WEC will continue to want to attract manufacturers to LMP1. Recognizable brand names drives media attention and turnstile numbers, especially at races after the 24 Hours of Le Mans. This is in large part about saving the WEC.

3. Are LMP-1 privateers part of the answer? Maybe. Are they by themselves the answer? Almost certainly not in an era when LMP-2s are very quick and relatively affordable.

4. Many people are assuming that any future LMP-1 privateers will be amazing cars that will instantly top time sheets, have good reliability, and be able to win races. That’s absolutely not a safe assumption. The ByKolles is a hot mess. The Rebellion One was kind of mediocre, with suspect reliability. That Dome LMP2 was a failure. It’s far from certain that future privateers will be that much faster than LMP2 and reliable enough to go 24 hours or even six hours regularly, especially right out of the box.

5. The related question is whether privateer LMP-1 teams will have the money to develop their car. That’s not a given.

6. In theory, the existence of the WEC compels LMP-1 teams to do nine races a year. Six of those races are after Le Mans with five outside of Europe. The obvious way to save money to develop the car (or otherwise) is to skip most or all of the post Le Mans events. This is exactly what LMP-1 privateers are doing now and have done in the past. And really, for privateers what value comes from racing in places like China, Bahrain, or Mexico?

This tendency will make life even harder for the WEC. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the WEC season drops back down to eight or even seven races to cut costs for teams. Also some existing events may not be economically viable without the star power of LMP-1H competition.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 18:16 (Ref:3755178)   #34
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At this stage, if it reduces costs, generates interest, and provides close racing, we should be for it--provided that it has the potential to achieve that.
There in lies the catch. Roger Edmonsons vision for Grand-Am was just that. Except the attraction and interest was not there for fans and the sponsors, what with the road racing scene being split. It did amaze me that even when P1 class for ALMS was Dyson and Picket, the fans still came in droves.

To be honest any sport or show made for television will by nature increase cost. Televison cares about eyeballs because of the commercial advertising which in turn sells products of the sponsors which in turn pays for the series. Now media is everywhere; smartphones, PDAs, Xbox/Playstations, etc. Mass-consumption.

Formula One has gotten very controlled and strict in technical regs that were designed to slash costs. Yet it remains the most expensive motorsport. It's no coincidence that it's global popularity attracts the $$$. It's lucrative and why the teams spend an insane amount for a fraction of a second. *As a side note a majority of the teams in F1 now (and historically) are privateer they're just grossly wealthy.*

We are passionate as fans an so it's hard to please us. What do we want? Professional run series that as a consequence is a business, or return to the roots of what the sport was: a hobby for a dedicated few: it'll be cheaper but it still won't be cheap and of course always have some form of politics. That's just human nature.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 19:02 (Ref:3755189)   #35
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Six quick thoughts:

1. The ACO and FIA WEC essentially told manufacturers to go big (technology and budget) or go home. Now that three of the manufacturers involved have decided to go home, the question is what comes next. And let’s not forget, that the WEC is a championship designed to meet the wants and needs of manufacturers.

2. The ACO and WEC will continue to want to attract manufacturers to LMP1. Recognizable brand names drives media attention and turnstile numbers, especially at races after the 24 Hours of Le Mans. This is in large part about saving the WEC.
All of these are good but too much to respond to in detail in one post.

Basically, the WEC needs factory teams to sustain its global schedule. Astronomical costs didn't attract factories (hard to believe, eh?) and politics annoyed factories.

And yes, privateers might not be good enough to make the show.

But ... we almost saw all the factory cars bite the dust at Le Mans. And Audi can testify that having seven factory cars in a race can mean that one might win ... but the rest might or might not finish (thinking of the exploding Peugeot year.)

I would hope that with no factory teams, some of the privateers might attract some sponsorship ... after all, who would sponsor a P1-L Knowing it wasn't going to see the podium unless the media was dominated by the story of factory failures, in which case the podium still doesn't provide exposure?

Possibly they privateers could get some dollars if they had a decent chance to win. As it is, P1-L is a joke class.

The question is, what do the factories want? Do they want P1 at all? is there anything that can make P1 attractive? I am pretty sure it is not the proposed 2020 rules.

Even if WEC cut back to six races ... can it support a top class that will attract factories? And without factories ... can it generate enough interest and enough income to even exist? or will it become a glorified ELMS?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 19:06 (Ref:3755191)   #36
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http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...the-issue.html

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...from-here.html

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In the wake of the withdrawal of Audi Sport’s long-standing programme last year, I asked a question of the head of the FIA Endurance Commission, Sir Lindsey Owen-Jones: “Had an error been made not giving aspirant manufacturers an easier route into prototype racing than has been offered by the LMP1 H regulations?”

The answer, after brief consideration, was that this might very well have been a correct observation.

There is then an opportunity to put that right immediately.

Allow factory engines, factory aero and full factory badging on a range of LMP1 chassis. Allow those teams to enter the 2018 FIA WEC from the start with a non-factory-badged car, a Ginetta for instance, potentially debuting a new car at Le Mans next year.

Take the hit that parking the tech-based formula might require, allow them to measure their efforts against Toyota, and ensure that any privateers get a fair crack of the whip too.

If the 2020 regs survive the maelstrom, if Toyota can be persuaded to return, and are joined by Peugeot, and, who knows, in a year or two down the line by one of the new boys, attracted by the package and the technical hard reset that entirely new tech provides, then it would be mission accomplished.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 19:26 (Ref:3755196)   #37
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Fact is that these rules needed a massive reset. Unfortunately it took two factory teams being alienated from the series to get there.

The ACO might have had a reasonable sustainable class if they didn't have the ERS incentive and the "go big or go home" mentality mentioned earlier. We do have to remember that if you push for high tech and give teams a narrow time frame to get there, you're usually going to see budgets rise dramatically.

Rising budgets mean less ROI, especially if media exposure or getting what you want out of the program doesn't go up in lock step with budget increases.

Also, not just because of lawsuits against the auto industry (which I believe will get worse before they get better--VAG's dieselgate was just the tip of the iceberg as we're seeing now), but the economy has been mostly stagnant around the world for quite a few years. I don't care if the Dow Jones Industrial is pulling 20K+ points vs where it was this time last year, the world economy isn't growing, certainly not near that rate.

And in a soft economy, spending money is a hard sell, especially when questions of ROI get brought up and results are desired instantly. The ACO should consider themselves fortunate that VAG stuck it out with Porsche and especially Audi for as long as they did. They could've left at anytime, any place.

I'd hope that this is a learning experience for the ACO. However, it seems that every 10, 15, 20 years they repeat the same mistakes. So I hope that line there underscores my personal skepticism on how they'll address this problem. After all, it's largely of their making, it's up to them to find a solution.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 19:51 (Ref:3755206)   #38
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ACO needs to create a LMPe class for electric prototypes.
This is what the market demands, this is what the manufacturers demand.
I remember shot down for almost that verbatim in 2011. Not on here, but still, how much things can change.

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Modern "fans" and potential fans have a completely different set of expectations .. and generally are less willing to commit time, attention, and energy (to anything.) They want immediate gratification, sensory overload, constant variety ... they need to have three data streams running all the time or they fall asleep.
If you have say, say it to my face.

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If FIA has a single member with a brain, s/he will insist on a few things: low cost to competitors, short events, short circuits, in-city circuits.
That's a big if.

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Maybe Toyota could run 4 cars at LM next year. Two from Toyota and two from Lexus. Although with their luck a 'Lexus' would win.
Or 7, or 59.

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I'm a tech junkie, but as long as we're having fans vote on who gets a faster car, I'm not interested. I've watched it a few times and try to get into it, but it feels like a joke because of things like that.
I don't recall having seen it even used since Marrakesh. It's about as helpful as Driver of the Day to be frank.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 20:41 (Ref:3755215)   #39
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That emergency meeting at Toyota seemed like a bogus report according to Goodwin https://twitter.com/dsceditor/status/890870732120608768. Doesn't look like they are debating leaving the series because Porsche.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 21:22 (Ref:3755229)   #40
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That emergency meeting at Toyota seemed like a bogus report according to Goodwin https://twitter.com/dsceditor/status/890870732120608768. Doesn't look like they are debating leaving the series because Porsche.
Isn't it fun having to post the same thing on several threads?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 21:23 (Ref:3755231)   #41
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At least Toyota is a shot at winning Le Mans now
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 21:33 (Ref:3755234)   #42
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Fact is that these rules needed a massive reset. Unfortunately it took two factory teams being alienated from the series to get there.
Again I stand to be corrected, but were Audi and Porsche really alienated.....?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 22:18 (Ref:3755240)   #43
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Rising cost didn't help, even if dieselgate never happened. Not to mention that there have been several reports of Porsche not being happy with the ACO over promotion of the WEC and the Toyota diffuser stuff.

Not to mention that Audi were never happy with seemingly getting the short end of the stick on EOT, especially in regards to fuel mileage/range on a tank of fuel.

And as I've mentioned, there's probably a lot more to the pull outs than dieselgate or even ROI arguments. I'd bet that politics have a lot to do with it--and a lot of that lies in the ACO's lap.

Granted, this is now an opportunity for any privateer teams who felt hard done by the regs to point and laugh at the ACO for undeniably screwing them due to following the factory team money gravy train. Stuff like this happens all the time, pursuing instant gratification over the long-term game.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 02:28 (Ref:3755264)   #44
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I'm baffled how you can come to that conclusion. I think it's pretty obvious that the dieselgate is the reason the two VAG teams have quit in the past 2 years. Hard to justify $200 million programs when you can go to F-E and boost your 'green image' with 10% that budget.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 03:30 (Ref:3755275)   #45
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And don't surprised when you see Toyota join them on the bandwagon. And you have to remember it's not only VAG. Daimler already has been in if anything bigger trouble over their scams, and now they and BMW (and maybe also Ford's EU operation and PSA though purchasing GM's former EU operation), and probably others in the EU are being investigated for other things, namely anti-trust and anti-competitive practices.

Not to mention that in the US GM and Chrysler are getting sued for fudging diesel testing on their pick up trucks. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar witch hunt happening in Japan, or of Japanese car makers by the EU and US; Nissan/Renault already got sued in the EU for lying about fuel economy performance.

It's clearly obvious that if costs were less, they might have stayed. If things were better as far as promotion or press coverage were better for the series as a whole, they might have stayed.

I doubt that Toyota want to be out there alone spending $75-100 million on their program with no competition and no ROI either. So don't be surprised if they're gone by the end of next season.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 10:05 (Ref:3755416)   #46
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Not to mention that there have been several reports of Porsche not being happy with the ACO over promotion of the WEC
This I can believe. I've never been impressed with their efforts at promotion.
Just because they run the biggest motor race in the world means they know how to run & promote a full FiA World Championship. It just feels like Le Mans, plus supporting 6 hour races......

I've said before I'd have preferred to see a WSC, with Le Mans, plus a 10/12 Hour race, with a mix of 6 Hour/ 1000Km races, and maybe the odd 500Km/ 3 hour races for variety.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 13:44 (Ref:3755447)   #47
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Why would one series, built for smaller tracks and sprint races, fail where another would immediately be ready for success? Opening the parts up for development has been in the pipeline for years, hence the manufacturers now migrating over in preparation for new pieces being allowed. MB, Porsche, Audi all have time to work on their product and they know what the rules will be when they enter. BMW has been hanging around the Andretti crews to get a feel for it and working with the team in developing motors. I think they all know exactly what they are getting in to and know the marketing of the EVENT is what sells for them on the street, the innovation is what sells to the board.

Which do you think sells better to new fans, an afternoon event with everything from noon-6 pm in a city or a weekend event with gaps in the schedule and a commitment from the fan to travel out to the event? You can hate it all you want but honestly, they probably have ZERO interest in attracting old race fans. They are looking for the fans who weren't in to racing but might be attracted by something completely different.
If FE can't hold it together once manufacturers start shredding them apart like dogs because they want X and are willing to pull out if official stance is still Y then they have no chance in hell. They can either watch cost skyrocket into oblivion and manufacturers dropping out going somewhere else or they can pressure them not to spend money (develop) and watch them pull out.

WEC has LeMans Winner marketing bragging rights and they are more adaptable and flexible when it comes to trends and rules. If needed they would be ready to drop LMP1 as we know it in order to introduce something like GT500 with cars based off real cars but with prototype technology inside. That would be a hell more valuable to manufacturers then Formula E cause buyers could associate their road cars far better with something that resembles a road car than open wheel racecar.

Imo FE is just the stepping stone for manufacturers in EV battleground. Once technology grows up they will go somewhere else. There is a little chance FE will become flagship racing entity. Very little chance.

Time will tell.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 14:28 (Ref:3755463)   #48
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And don't surprised when you see Toyota join them on the bandwagon. And you have to remember it's not only VAG. Daimler already has been in if anything bigger trouble over their scams, and now they and BMW (and maybe also Ford's EU operation and PSA though purchasing GM's former EU operation), and probably others in the EU are being investigated for other things, namely anti-trust and anti-competitive practices.

Not to mention that in the US GM and Chrysler are getting sued for fudging diesel testing on their pick up trucks. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar witch hunt happening in Japan, or of Japanese car makers by the EU and US; Nissan/Renault already got sued in the EU for lying about fuel economy performance.

It's clearly obvious that if costs were less, they might have stayed. If things were better as far as promotion or press coverage were better for the series as a whole, they might have stayed.

I doubt that Toyota want to be out there alone spending $75-100 million on their program with no competition and no ROI either. So don't be surprised if they're gone by the end of next season.
Pick one, did they leave because they felt alienated by the rules, it cost too much or the promotion wasn't there? Seems like you want every thing to be the FIA's fault and nothing on VAG's side. And you pick and choose which argument to use based on what people try to respond and challenge your conclusion.

As for the diesel 'cheating' software on the US trucks. It's a non starter and after it settles there's likely going to be no action. The software in question has already been shown to work as they described and is allowed under the pertinent conditions. The EPA and CARB just want all the Italian documentation fully translated.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 14:42 (Ref:3755471)   #49
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Imo FE is just the stepping stone for manufacturers in EV battleground. Once technology grows up they will go somewhere else. There is a little chance FE will become flagship racing entity. Very little chance. Time will tell.
I might disagree.

I think boards of directors have been getting more and more financially conservative, and are starting to demand more ROI.

FE could become like NASCAR, where there really isn't any development and the manufacturers race to get their names in the news.

Maybe FE won't ever get as big ans the biggest nation/international series ... but maybe the big manufacturers won't be so willing to sink big bucks into those series, either. if Audi spent over a billion (and I'd bet twice that) on five years of ILMC/WEC, what did they get?

Not many peple who are buying Audis are interested in racing. In fact, Audi probably makes most of its money selling loaded top-end luxury models to rich people, and second selling entry-level cars to people who want to "step up" to an Audi.

I doubt the ability of FIA to run on a smooth sidewalk, let alone run a race series. But I do think the manufacturers realize that a more "managed-competition" sort of series is best for everyone, because they All get ROI.

They all get to claim a podium or two, and more than that, get to claim participation in a "green" racing series.

"Here at Hyundai, we pursue the very pinnacle of clean automotive technology, and prove our commitment-and our product--in the crucible of racing. Our Formula E car is 100 percent electric--100 percent emissions free. Hyundai--racing towards the future."

They (if they even had a team) could lose every race--very few people who saw the ad would know or care. The green, and competition-tested, and the zero emissions .... those are the selling points.

Any manufacturer buys a whole load of greenwashing points just for sticking its name on the side of the car.

Costs are low, which is why it really works. I don't see the manufacturers trying to blow FE into a "standard" international series ... because those have failed so often.

As Broadrun says ... FE is Not aimed at "race fans." Race fans are an economic dead-end for manufacturers. FE is aimed at people who want to hang out at an Event in the downtown area (filled with other distractions) on one day of a weekend, and not a twelve- or even six hour event at some track out in the sticks. FE is actually aimed at much larger and growing segment of the population--normal people who grew up with multiple data streams, constant connectivity, a cellphone or tablet on and in action during every waking hour.

FE has no desire to make the same mistake Every other series has made: turning into spending wars, technological competitions which eventually drive everyone out of the series.

Traditional race fans want that competition---but the new breed of potential fan simply doesn't care. They want the Immediate Experience. They don't want to know about the politics, the engineering .... they are most likely to buy a new car based on what their friends like, and how much connectivity and how many driver aids it includes. "Performance" isn't even in their vocabulary.

But hey, this is the FIA. They could screw up a nail.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 15:22 (Ref:3755484)   #50
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
And don't surprised when you see Toyota join them on the bandwagon. And you have to remember it's not only VAG. Daimler already has been in if anything bigger trouble over their scams, and now they and BMW (and maybe also Ford's EU operation and PSA though purchasing GM's former EU operation), and probably others in the EU are being investigated for other things, namely anti-trust and anti-competitive practices.

Not to mention that in the US GM and Chrysler are getting sued for fudging diesel testing on their pick up trucks. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar witch hunt happening in Japan, or of Japanese car makers by the EU and US; Nissan/Renault already got sued in the EU for lying about fuel economy performance.

It's clearly obvious that if costs were less, they might have stayed. If things were better as far as promotion or press coverage were better for the series as a whole, they might have stayed.

I doubt that Toyota want to be out there alone spending $75-100 million on their program with no competition and no ROI either. So don't be surprised if they're gone by the end of next season.
Does Toyota actually need to spend 75-100 million next year? They know they have the best car, and just a little reliability testing should work fine. Don't need to push the envelope and develop if they don't want to.
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