The end is nigh? or a shifting tide?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

The writing was on the wall for me a few years back when I entered an off season winter race, now this was basically a "clubbie" event but two entrants arrived by helicopter with their cars already prepared and waiting with a team of mechanics.
However I actually beat them in the races and it was brilliant to see them inspecting my "old nail" to see how I'd done it !

Hasn't this been the case for yonks, though. Although they didn't arrive by helicopter 50 years ago, there were drivers who used to turn up a considerable time after the "team" had arrived who had completed all the formalities such as scutineering. In fact I can recall one such driver who eventually rolled up in the paddock at Snetterton, and found to the team's annoyance that he had forgotten to bring the only thing that they had entrusted him with; the keys to the car!

We were able to return past favours from them by finding a key that did the job.

[Mike Harte]

I must admit that I was amazed at a BTCC meeting a very few years ago at Donington that virtually every entrant had hospitality facilities. I went with my son as a guest of a GT team that my son's firm were sponsoring that season. They had a huge marquee that had seating for around 100 people, and were laying on hot and cold meals for goodness only knows how many people. My son estimated that at least half of his firm's generosity was being spent on providing hospitality, not making the car go better.

[terence]

Originally Posted by gary396

So what, in any, is the role of the FIA in addressing this issue Louis?

Probably the same as always-nothing.
HTPs were originaly hope to cure a lot of Ill's.They failed miserably as it seems that since the advent of "the database"things have grown from managable to out of control.
FIA DO play a big part in the rising costs.They stipulate what Hans,Roll cage,seats helmets overalls are used.Without that label,no one races!!!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I know that this malaise is mentioned in respect to Historic Racing, but I think it's affecting all types of 'club' racing.

I am not convinced that's true. As always some series are suffering because they don't offer perceived value for money but others are thriving.

The "proper" (i.e. not proper at all) historic stuff has got out of hand because people are cheating, there's a level of so called professionalism involved and because of the supposed halo effect of Goodwood and Silverstone Classics etc. Which has added to costs everywhere else as people try to keep up with the the Jones or catch the eye of someone to pay a fortune for an invite!

However, and I can here the groans now, CSCC had something like 350 cars at its Snetterton meeting. Sure, it's not "proper historic racing", whatever that is, but it is aimed at the club competitor of whatever bank balance. Some are spending lots of money, it was ever thus, but some of us get by with a tow car and trailer and a mate to help out and tyres that last most of a season etc.

The point is, it is what it is, it is good value compared to the competition, there's no pretence and expense of daft "hospitality", and everyone just gets on with it, with many full grids and reserves. One or two so called stars turn up like Mike and Andrew Jordan, Dave Coyne and Calumn Lockie, maybe as driver coaches, or maybe just to enjoy themselves, but they queue up for a rollicking off Hugo just like the rest of us, and no one seems to up their own xxxes, like in some historic series.

To repeat, offer value for money and an enjoyable experience and you will succeed.

More club racing (for older cars, rather than "historics") and less "festivals" please.

[Heightswitch]

Just get rid of the Fia ??

To be honest. More than the money ..It is the over regulated pompousness that is doing for the sport. Add to that that the kids of today are simply not interested in the same things as we were when we were kids….

Put it another way.. I am a 45 year old Builder. I have a mechanical bent. I enjoy turning my hand to spanners, I bought a lathe and my old fella (75 this year) Taught me turning. I have built cars since I was 17. As a hobby I have learned to weld, spray, build engines and Spanner generally…

These days kids are simply not turned on to proper mechanics… there Idea of making something would be to programme it and then have a machine automatically spit it out!!!

So it is partly this but also.. Over regulation.. Us old fashioned dirty fingernail types are simply not in the majority anymore….We are bound by a world who want to rule by focus groups and committee.. the problem is that the eloquent speaking randoms with money but no sense of the real world gain the greatest share of power……They then spoil it for everyone…

I built my own car…I race it to have fun. This year I am racing my Griff against zetec fiestas, modern Minis, BMW's etc etc…a 50 year old car racing outside of its period but hell it is fun!! some people have forgotten what fun is.. I pity them!! So I will race where there is more fun to be had.. If it isn't as much fun because it has become too stuffy then I will go elsewhere.

N.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by andy97

I am not convinced that's true. As always some series are suffering because they don't offer perceived value for money but others are thriving.

The "proper" (i.e. not proper at all) historic stuff has got out of hand because people are cheating, there's a level of so called professionalism involved and because of the supposed halo effect of Goodwood and Silverstone Classics etc. Which has added to costs everywhere else as people try to keep up with the the Jones or catch the eye of someone to pay a fortune for an invite!

However, and I can here the groans now, CSCC had something like 350 cars at its Snetterton meeting. Sure, it's not "proper historic racing", whatever that is, but it is aimed at the club competitor of whatever bank balance. Some are spending lots of money, it was ever thus, but some of us get by with a tow car and trailer and a mate to help out and tyres that last most of a season etc.

The point is, it is what it is, it is good value compared to the competition, there's no pretence and expense of daft "hospitality", and everyone just gets on with it, with many full grids and reserves. One or two so called stars turn up like Mike and Andrew Jordan, Dave Coyne and Calumn Lockie, maybe as driver coaches, or maybe just to enjoy themselves, but they queue up for a rollicking off Hugo just like the rest of us, and no one seems to up their own xxxes, like in some historic series.

To repeat, offer value for money and an enjoyable experience and you will succeed.

More club racing (for older cars, rather than "historics") and less "festivals" please.

Exactly…..We have Fun!!

[Cliff Ryan]

Hopefully it's a shifting tide, where true historic racers race with CSCC, HSCC & similar and the big name festivals entrants are mainly 'names' or wealthy amateurs, with mere mortals like me making the odd appearance.

I thoroughly enjoy the racing and feel very privileged to be able to take part. Having started in 1999 I have been lucky enough to race in a few big name events before they moved out of my grasp, which if I was just starting out probably wouldn't be able to do now.

I seem to remember a very similar thread that was started by Simon H about 8 years ago - so it's no new thing....

[Lancsbreaker]

Can't add anything fresh, really, except to agree that the proper clubman series such as CSCC that we've raced with for several years, and 750MC that we are doing a few events with this year, do offer relative value for money and a generally good atmosphere. Running success penalties that make it harder for anyone to "buy" success consistently probably helps, too

Most series running fairly full, sometimes oversubscribed, grids is the proof of the pudding, I guess.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by andy97

However, and I can here the groans now, CSCC had something like 350 cars at its Snetterton meeting. Sure, it's not "proper historic racing", whatever that is, but it is aimed at the club competitor of whatever bank balance. Some are spending lots of money, it was ever thus, but some of us get by with a tow car and trailer and a mate to help out and tyres that last most of a season etc.

There lies the problem, not that it's not proper racing but more that the snob value keeps a lot of people away from the CSCC. I just wonder how long before the open cheque book to go faster crowd affects your series' Andy, if it hasn't already that is, it's one reasons I've lost interest in racing, or maybe "I know my place"

[andy97]

Tim, I think that you are right, there is some snobby attitudes that prevent some people entering, but there are also plenty of people racing in CSCC who do race at high profile meetings both in Europe and the U.K. and yet are just as happy in our paddock. And the grid sizes are generally pretty good across all the clubs series.

There's also no doubt that there is cheque book racing (and even some cheating, which is astonishing in a club with series with so few regs!!!) but that's always been the case in any race series, I guess. There are still occasions, though, where a good driver in a relatively "ordinary" car can still succeed if they are talented enough and, as mentioned, the crude success penalty does seem to work even if it's not for the purist.

It's not perfect, and nothing ever will be, but cscc shows that there is still an opportunity for race clubs to be successful if they offer a product and a service that appeals to their customers.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by gary396

So what, in any, is the role of the FIA in addressing this issue Louis?

We have a landline and an office in Geneva, get the promoters together and tell them to call us and we will act but I doubt anyone will do anything...

..the "Golden" rule, that's what is driving historic racing at the moment.

No regulations are perfect, none are easy to enforce but when trying to reach the 100% enforcement, what you realise is that it ensures a level playing field.

And from the blue book:

“Historic Cars may be used for Competitions under a set of rules that preserve the specifications of their period and prevent modifications of performance and behaviour which arise through the application of modern technology”

“Historic Competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history”

“Historic Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the Motor Car”

But anyway, the thing to remember about Appendix K is that it exist to ensure one particular aspect as well, a level playing field. If Appendix K didn’t exist or is not applied, it becomes modern racing with cars that tend to look historic.

Oh and yes, we know what is happening...

[one-two]

It's a broad church - do the events and series that you like and do your bit to help them survive and prosper. And maybe stop having a go at other people whose choices and means are different? If you no longer enjoy any of it then maybe it's no longer the hobby for you!

[gary396]

Originally Posted by Duddha

We have a landline and an office in Geneva, get the promoters together and tell them to call us and we will act but I doubt anyone will do anything...

..the "Golden" rule, that's what is driving historic racing at the moment.

No regulations are perfect, none are easy to enforce but when trying to reach the 100% enforcement, what you realise is that it ensures a level playing field.

And from the blue book:

“Historic Cars may be used for Competitions under a set of rules that preserve the specifications of their period and prevent modifications of performance and behaviour which arise through the application of modern technology”

“Historic Competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history”

“Historic Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the Motor Car”

But anyway, the thing to remember about Appendix K is that it exist to ensure one particular aspect as well, a level playing field. If Appendix K didn’t exist or is not applied, it becomes modern racing with cars that tend to look historic.

Oh and yes, we know what is happening...

I may be missing something Louis, but if the FIA knows what is happening then why not do something about it? And why need a call from the promoters to take action?

[terence]

Originally Posted by Duddha

We have a landline and an office in Geneva, get the promoters together and tell them to call us and we will act but I doubt anyone will do anything...

..the "Golden" rule, that's what is driving historic racing at the moment.

No regulations are perfect, none are easy to enforce but when trying to reach the 100% enforcement, what you realise is that it ensures a level playing field.

And from the blue book:

“Historic Cars may be used for Competitions under a set of rules that preserve the specifications of their period and prevent modifications of performance and behaviour which arise through the application of modern technology”


Oh and yes, we know what is happening...

Well maybe you do,so what is being done about the Bluebook rules as quoted Louis.
Obviously the whole situation is totally out of control.Out of a grid of say,100 cars,what would the percentage of Conforming Cars be?At a guess around 15 maybe 20% on a good day.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by gary396

I may be missing something Louis, but if the FIA knows what is happening then why not do something about it? And why need a call from the promoters to take action?

In a perfect world, there should be an easy way of action but as with any ruling body, there is a pyramid and a way to act.

FIFA doesn't rule national championships but gives the guidelines to the national federation and the national federation enforces it.

If you take FIA and our historic world, we rule and write the book as well as the HTP and after it's down to the ASNs to make sure the rules are respected.

A good example is the HTP, once issued, it is right and the car should compete as presented on the papers with scrutineers having the responsibility at event requesting them to make sure the car complies with the set of papers.

How many time do the scrutineers only check the security items and nothing else ?! That shows the power a promoter can have on these people and the fact that ASNs or Clubs do not wish to enforce a system properly.

And the fact that the cars are not scrutineered properly causes the cars to be altered from the HTP specification declared.

All in all, we rule and write but unless we are given the right to act in a country by the national ruling body, nothing can happen and look at modern motorsport, it's the same.

CN is a regulation for sport prototype but if you go to Italy, France or UK, unless there has been an agreement accross the board to use the CN rules as they were written by the FIA, any domestic series can add it's own variation..!

I do believe that something can be done but as promoter want entries to pay the ever rising circuit fees, they should penalise and give a delay to cars in order to conform as this is I think a sensible way but first, they need to understand the rules, know about cheating and most of all, be ready to take action over "good customer relations".

[gary396]

Which does sort of bring in to question the true value of the FIA doesn't it?

[MGDavid]

Louis,
so the system does not work;
then change the system!
The price of ruling is to show leadership.

[zefarelly]

Its a governing body, not a scrutineering organisation.

I think App K need simplifying, radically.

A majority of historic cars being raced under its banner are production based, they should be (for pre'66) group 1 or 2 . . . standard, or standard with homologated modifications.

That to me says you should see a manufacturers mark on pretty much every component as they are predominantly factory produced cars . . . . it should be simple.

If it was now, as it was then, it would still be broadly affordable to be vaguely competitive, whilst respecting the history of the cars.

There were no knives or guns, it was just arm wrestling in the bar afterwards

[John Turner]

As an amateur race organiser both with FISCAR and on my own account, there is so much I could go on about here, so I'll restrict to an area not, I think really covered on this thread. There is too much 'historic' racing as has been said many times. The trouble is quite a lot of it has been going on to a similar format for a long time and dare I say, some of it has got a bit stale. The trouble is that as an enthusiast, particularly for sports cars from say, the period 1935 - 65 (others will of course pick other eras) I'm not seeing what I want to see, so selfishly I come up with plans like the Revstrat, which notwithstanding it's nonstart following the loss of the 360MRC this year I intend to pursue. We need to keep it fresh, which was one of the reasons for that idea, and I have others.

It is a real struggle putting decent size grids together. FISCAR had 16 cars at Donington last Sunday, all great cars but we should have been into the 20s even allowing for other events that weekend. For the Scott Brown race at Snetterton on 5th June, I am barely into double figures so far, yet the guy is a legend, the track is the right one and the race is the only one which I believe actually caters for cars raced during his career. Maybe for these cars it is a race too far at this time of the year, but you've got to try. Heyho.

[one-two]

I wonder John if the sad demise of the 360MRC tells you something about how representative the views expressed here now are? It's also slightly unpleasant to be told that one is an eloquent speaking random with money but no sense and that 80% of us are cheating!

[zefarelly]

I don't think many people know thery're cheating, They're so detached from car preparation how would they?

There is too much racing and it is diluting grids. TC'63 was ideal for me and the MK2 Jags, but was unviable due to an average grid of 18. Now its been resurrected as a class within the 50's saloons, but I'm not allowed to do it as I'm too quick!

[John Turner]

Robert, it's difficult for me to comment on the demise of the 360MRC as it was a race that straddled several classes of cars and not simply historics. I do know that the organisers had been subsidising it for much of its existence and that couldn't go on indefinitely. Probably a different issue and I only mentioned it in the context of the support race, which actually generated a lot of interest.

I'm not entirely sure that I have gained the view that you have expressed in your second sentence. I think much of it depends on what class and era of 'historic' racing we are alluding to and I agree that 'cheating' is an emotive word and reference to 80% is both an exaggeration and meaningless. Certainly at the level I operate at I would suggest that it is pretty minimal. You will note that my post above rather steered away from that aspect.

[one-two]

All understood John and well put. By way of balance, I have raced just once this season so far and thoroughly enjoyed it. I have no idea of the financial circumstances of my fellow competitors or whether their cars were 100% compliant or slightly less than that and neither do I particularly care! The grid was full to bursting as is the next round of the same series.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by one-two

I wonder John if the sad demise of the 360MRC tells you something about how representative the views expressed here now are? It's also slightly unpleasant to be told that one is an eloquent speaking random with money but no sense and that 80% of us are cheating!

My dear fellow. I have re read my post and I have checked. Now I have definitely not referred to you personally as an eloquently speaking random. You race cars old chap so I am sure you are not that insecure in yourself. Comments were a generalisation as we all make from time to time..

I struggle with some forms of Historic racing because sometimes it is more about the clique than the shared passion of racing and enjoying the racing.

An example was an e-mail I sent recently with some photos of my car and requesting consideration for an entry to a local race ran by a well known historic club... the reply was a polite no since my car was not a proper Griffith...now the rub is that whilst starting out as something else.. The car was built on its original brazed chassis and is actually OLD. a few things aren't strictly to app K but to be honest I would have been over the moon with a non points scoring invitation drive. So it seems in some circles you have to have the real deal or in the case of my car the FIA approved replica of the approved body style only or you just cannot play. Yet my car is the essence of a historic car.. I watched the event that weekend looking at some of the other cars and thinking that the real state of Historic racing is often spoiled by the "you are not racing in our gang" attitudes that do exist in some circles..

as such I stick to where my car is appreciated for what it is!

N.

[Derwent Motorsp]

I have an interest is a few types of sport and have recently been appointed to the MSA Hill Climb and Sprint sub Committee. I have come to the conclusion that the MSA is not just out of touch but unwilling to listen to clubs or competitors, or indeed to their committees. The MSA can impose regulations without consultation under the “safety” heading thus we now have new ROPS regulations which have caused a number of existing racing and speed event cars to be ineligible without major surgery and HAS for anything other than road cars and pre 78 cars. Our actually committee is having those rules imposed on us. Hence declining entries.
When I did my first speed event in 1989 I just needed a licence and a helmet. Not I reckon the cost o getting to tour first start line of a sprint is about £700 for just a few minutes of track.
Then in racing and rallying you get “lifing” of helmets, seats and belts which is very hard on the folk who only do a few events per year. I can see there being no forest rallies in 5 years time due to cost and the fact that the FC don’t want their nice tracks destroyed by powerful rally cars with 4WD, aggressive tyres etc. Entry fees and the cost of running an event have risen greatly. I’ve just hears this year’s Jim Clark Rally has been cancelled due to a shortfall of entries.
I have raced my self built FIA MG B over the past 12 years but really the cost is now hard to justify and I’ve been doing historic hill climbs like Shelsley and Prescott which are nice places for us to go for a weekend. I may well sell the car soon.
There are undoubtedly a lot of very rich folk come into racing/rallying etc in recent years and that has created professional organisers who are happy to part these folk from their money. Take historic road rallies, a typical HERO/ERA/CRA event works out about £1000 per day in entry fees. The same type of event (regularity and tests) run by an NESCRO club or HRCR club works out at about 3100 including food! OK, the HERO events include accommodation but a big profit but they all get full entries.
In racing there are rich folk queuing to do the Silverstone Classic despite the entry fees being much higher than that for MG Live! over the same GP circuit. I am sure given the number of spectators and trade income the organisers could give free entries but if there are hundreds of folk offering to pay then why not take it?
Another issue is the limited number of venues and the steady loss of speed and rally venues. I reckon we lose two speed venues per year. This puts pressure on the other venues and the owners can then get the best possible price for a day’s hire and a track day of a GT team testing can pay more than a sprint or even a clubby race meeting. Even Anglesey is now very busy and hire rates have risen dramatically and are pricing the clubby events out. MGCC lost £2.5k on their recent sprint and have lost their September date as Britcar can pay more.
Is the answer outside the MSA? They are just one of even bodies legally allowed to authorise motorsport in the UK. Track days are hugely popular and some of their organisers are now running sprints with no silly MSA rules. Demonstration events like Kop Hill get big entries and spectator numbers than most race meetings our dream of.