Have we gone down the right path..

[promax]

with people commonly saying.. they can't tell the difference between our 3 V8 series.. and asking why they don't race together. .has NZ motorsport gone down the right path? modern race cars called boring, 'cookie cutter' cars, lack personality. people get more excited about cars from the 70's and 60's then what's currently on offer today in our Tier 1 series. it's a bit of different story in our non cookie cutter series though. 2KCUP .. popular cheap class.. lot's of variety. South Island Endurance Series.. great variety of cars.. interest growing. CMC.. perfect! GTRNZ.. variety of cars excellent.. car numbers vary at times. should more classes be encouraged to race together? would this not cut back on all the extra unnecessary race meetings, improve grid numbers and make the racing more of a spectacle for paying fans? i'm not a Mazda fan (no I don't own a MX5) the sound of the Pro 7s or Pro 7 plus cars doesn't appeal to me... yet throw them all together along with the RX8s and mx5s.. and class isn't half bad. would the NZV8 Utes with the TLs or the SsangYong be a bad thing? the 86's with the Swifts or even the NZV8 Utes? would a 12KCUP or 20KCUP work? or will people continue to play in their on little sandpit.. thinking their product is the only show in town?

[adbutler]

I personally have no problems with various classes racing in the same race.

[mountainstar]

I've never been a big fan of "spec" cars or "one make" series. I think they have their place at times, but they've become a standard way of doing things in motorsport worldwide to the exclusion of any interesting technical development or competition.

I think the 2 V8 series ended up where they are for various reasons. A lot of it financial, some of it different ideologies, part of it a divorce from being chained up to Motorsport NZ.

Where to go from here? Well it seems that sportscar/endurance racing is gathering numbers and race meetings in NZ.

[BackSeat Driver]

Promax, to be Frank, I think you need to go out and talk to some other people instead of the tight circle of friends you seem to be stuck in.

This season I am about to do some sponsorship on a V8ST and a SARS ute. I read this forum but I also talk to my customers who know a lot/some/little about NZ motorsport.

The majority % of my customers would never go to an event, but would happily watch it on the TV and get excited about seeing a brand they recognise.

I chose V8ST because of the professionalism that they show in the pits and TV air time that was pitched to me. The SARS ute was the same, not as much TV to be fair, but more than 2kCUP will ever get. (and on occasions they will park the ute infront of my shop for a day - small kids and Dads love race cars, ecpically when they can sit inside it for a photo).

CMC and GTRNZ would be excellent forms of sponsorship but without the TV time im reluctant to invest.

I guess what im saying is I probably talk to about 150-200 customers a day. If they have any form of motorsport clothing on I always ask a little bit extra. It might only be 10 people in a day but your comments of "modern race cars called boring, 'cookie cutter' cars, lack personality. people get more excited about cars from the 70's and 60's then what's currently on offer today in our Tier 1 series." does not ring true with my demographic.

A.B.

[Rocket Man]

Totally agree with you Backseat Driver.
Your business sounds as if I could work there. Any jobs?

[promax]

Originally Posted by BackSeat Driver

Promax, to be Frank, I think you need to go out and talk to some other people instead of the tight circle of friends you seem to be stuck in.

This season I am about to do some sponsorship on a V8ST and a SARS ute. I read this forum but I also talk to my customers who know a lot/some/little about NZ motorsport.

The majority % of my customers would never go to an event, but would happily watch it on the TV and get excited about seeing a brand they recognise.

I chose V8ST because of the professionalism that they show in the pits and TV air time that was pitched to me. The SARS ute was the same, not as much TV to be fair, but more than 2kCUP will ever get. (and on occasions they will park the ute infront of my shop for a day - small kids and Dads love race cars, ecpically when they can sit inside it for a photo).

CMC and GTRNZ would be excellent forms of sponsorship but without the TV time im reluctant to invest.

I guess what im saying is I probably talk to about 150-200 customers a day. If they have any form of motorsport clothing on I always ask a little bit extra. It might only be 10 people in a day but your comments of "modern race cars called boring, 'cookie cutter' cars, lack personality. people get more excited about cars from the 70's and 60's then what's currently on offer today in our Tier 1 series." does not ring true with my demographic.

A.B.

each to their own. in the age of social media.. it's debatable tv time is as important as it once was. take Mike Whiddett for an example. no local drifting event has been shown on tv live (to my knowledge) no doubt the local print media didn't give drifting a lot of love either in it's infant years. yet this guy has a huge following world wide. fans absolutely love him and his cars. last checked he's got over 800,000 people following him on facebook.. and climbing. that's a hell of a lot of eyes watching his every move. no doubt all his sponsors think that's great. the guy and his locally built car get flown to all corners of the world (I think he's currently at Goodwood) it's pretty impressive how he built up his profile.. by using non traditional means. the older generation ooh and ahh over the PDL Mustangs.. kids around the world ooh and ahh over Mike's cars. which also have a personality of their own.. and would hardly be called cookie cutter cars. the point I'm getting at is.. NZ Motorsport is stale. it seems to go down the same exact path over and over gain. the cars might be slightly different.. and wear a different badge.. but they all die the same way. then an exciting new class is announced which is exactly the same as the last 10 series that have ended.. the only difference is.. they use a different car. the lack of excitement is still the same. something different needs to be done.. and other ways to promote the sport should be.. rather than relying on public tv. not that there's anything wrong with public tv.

[promax]

oh and BackSeat... next time ask your customers which V8ST or SARS ute they prefer.. and why? it will interesting to hear what the point of difference is considering the cars are all identical. which is what I was getting at... when I said modern race cars lack personality.

btw there's a kid named Joe Kukutai. he might be worth a look at.. if you ever want to sponsor a drifter.

[Chappelli]

I think you need to split the road forward in two. What you’re doing for the sport and what you’re doing for the show.

The sport needs lots of competitors, big grids and cheap racing. A crowd builds a crowd, lots of people to race against makes things fun and low cost means competitors can keep doing it.
The show needs decent grids, sexy cars and promoters that understand that they’re in entertainment business (in 2014).

You need the show to breed competitors, you need the sport to breed the stars.

The sport needs to be run by enthusiasts who’re passionate about motorsport and understand entertainment.
The show needs to be run by professionals who’re passionate about entertainment and understand motorsport.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

I think you need to split the road forward in two. What you’re doing for the sport and what you’re doing for the show.

The sport needs lots of competitors, big grids and cheap racing. A crowd builds a crowd, lots of people to race against makes things fun and low cost means competitors can keep doing it.
The show needs decent grids, sexy cars and promoters that understand that they’re in entertainment business (in 2014).

You need the show to breed competitors, you need the sport to breed the stars.

The sport needs to be run by enthusiasts who’re passionate about motorsport and understand entertainment.
The show needs to be run by professionals who’re passionate about entertainment and understand motorsport.

Nice post!

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

I think you need to split the road forward in two. What you’re doing for the sport and what you’re doing for the show.

The sport needs lots of competitors, big grids and cheap racing. A crowd builds a crowd, lots of people to race against makes things fun and low cost means competitors can keep doing it.
The show needs decent grids, sexy cars and promoters that understand that they’re in entertainment business (in 2014).

You need the show to breed competitors, you need the sport to breed the stars.

The sport needs to be run by enthusiasts who’re passionate about motorsport and understand entertainment.
The show needs to be run by professionals who’re passionate about entertainment and understand motorsport.

Exactly!

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

I think you need to split the road forward in two. What you’re doing for the sport and what you’re doing for the show.

The sport needs lots of competitors, big grids and cheap racing. A crowd builds a crowd, lots of people to race against makes things fun and low cost means competitors can keep doing it.
The show needs decent grids, sexy cars and promoters that understand that they’re in entertainment business (in 2014).

You need the show to breed competitors, you need the sport to breed the stars.

The sport needs to be run by enthusiasts who’re passionate about motorsport and understand entertainment.
The show needs to be run by professionals who’re passionate about entertainment and understand motorsport.

Don't make so much sense Chappelli or you will be kicked out of Motorsport.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

I think you need to split the road forward in two. What you’re doing for the sport and what you’re doing for the show.

Are you saying the two are mutually exclusive?

Originally Posted by Chappelli

The sport needs lots of competitors, big grids and cheap racing. A crowd builds a crowd, lots of people to race against makes things fun and low cost means competitors can keep doing it.
The show needs decent grids, sexy cars and promoters that understand that they’re in entertainment business (in 2014).

You need the show to breed competitors, you need the sport to breed the stars.

I'm not sure what you are saying here but I would have thought the sport would breed the competitors then they 'graduate' to the show (provided they can obtain funding!) to become stars?

Originally Posted by Chappelli

The sport needs to be run by enthusiasts who’re passionate about motorsport and understand entertainment.
The show needs to be run by professionals who’re passionate about entertainment and understand motorsport.

Thats a catchy little phrase and I tend to agree with the sentiments, although I feel it is not that cut and dried.

I feel the enthusiasts need to take advice from some professionals and vice versa. It is too easy for both to get tunnel vision and lose sight of the big picture.

How would you translate your vision of a split in the road into real life? In other words into which camp would you see each of the miriad of tin top classes falling into and why? Also the three single seater classes and the sports cars.

What would be your ideal setup? Given the practical constraints that exist in NZ, how would you like to see motorsport structured?

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Are you saying the two are mutually exclusive?



I'm not sure what you are saying here but I would have thought the sport would breed the competitors then they 'graduate' to the show (provided they can obtain funding!) to become stars?



Thats a catchy little phrase and I tend to agree with the sentiments, although I feel it is not that cut and dried.

Chappelli will come on for sure but my 2 cents

I'm not sure what you are saying here but I would have thought the sport would breed the competitors then they 'graduate' to the show (provided they can obtain funding!) to become stars?

Well people at home watching the show (think kid watching bathurst) wants to become a race driver, then once they are in the sport the sport should move them through to Star, which then develops more people wanting to compete and the cycle regenerates.

[Rusty Nail]

OK I can see the logic there. I was taking something different out of what he wrote.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Are you saying the two are mutually exclusive?

Not at all. In fact, something like Driver education could fit into both, the sport in practical terms, the show in marketing terms. Both provide opportunities for the whole to have a slice of a massive road safety pie.

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

I'm not sure what you are saying here but I would have thought the sport would breed the competitors then they 'graduate' to the show (provided they can obtain funding!) to become stars?

Exactly, it’s a virtuous cycle. With no part being more critical than any other.

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Thats a catchy little phrase and I tend to agree with the sentiments, although I feel it is not that cut and dried.

I feel the enthusiasts need to take advice from some professionals and vice versa. It is too easy for both to get tunnel vision and lose sight of the big picture.

Absolutely, in fact the whole thing relies on the two working together not against.
I also agree, it’s an easy thing to write, a hard thing to do.

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

How would you translate your vision of a split in the road into real life? In other words into which camp would you see each of the miriad of tin top classes falling into and why? Also the three single seater classes and the sports cars.
What would be your ideal setup? Given the practical constraints that exist in NZ, how would you like to see motorsport structured?

I’d buy a DeLorean and go back to a more peaceful time…… Seriously, it’s a tough one, I personally think there’s good and bad parts about the lot.
Having had more exposure to the show world (non-motorsport entertainment) than the sport, I’m probably not qualified to comment to deeply on how the sport side of things should be run. In saying that, I really thing the BMW’s, Honda Cup, 2kCup and Muscle Car guys (amongst others) have a really good thing going for the sport. Actually, any class that can hold a meeting and know that they’ll have 20 cars on the grid is probably doing a good thing.

As for the show….. I think we’re in a bit of a pickle with a few things, not the least obvious being NZV8’s and V8ST’s pounding each other into near unconsciousness. There’s also the blessing and the curse that is single make series.

For me, I think the first thing is having a cadence to the calendar. You can’t build momentum without it.
As for classes, there needs to be one premier class, which in NZ (given the demographics of our drivers with budget and anecdotal evidence based on merchandise you see on the streets) has to be tin top. I think there’s really good things about both the TLXs and V8STs. But I look at what V8ST were trying to do and it fits with what I believe. Yep, they’ve had some epic teething problems, yep they appear to have some issues now, but I think that class is a hell of a lot closer to understanding what it takes to grow the show than the other….though,, once the class has got a bit of momentum, the next iteration should be something that distinguishes it from V8SC and should be something the class is bubbling away on now (and part of that should be looking into the DNA argument and finding out whether it’s something that’s critical or something that’s only an issue when you ask the question).

Alongside that there should be a single seater class. The Toyotas are fantastic, only faults would be the cost and it’s an all eggs in one basket scenario which lives and dies on the interest level of a single party.

(and now we’re about to get contentious)

With those two, I’d include a motorcycle class…. Why? Incremental audience.
And a class of trucks… Why? Incremental audience. (and in the future that turns into a spec chassis and engine class)
Annnnnd, 3 locally available “interest” classes picked by the promoter to provide interest, diversity and a decent sized grid (could be muscle cars, could be F5000, could be Sports Cars.).

On top of that lot, wherever possible a show is integrated into “the show”. Why? 15,000 people a day at $20 a head and exhibitors paying for the privilege to be at Speedshow says there’s interest and there’s a revenue opportunity….

Maybe they’re not the answers, but what I can tell you is the answers don’t lie in the past, where there were a handful of TV channels and bugger all entertainment options and you got crowds by default. They lie in understanding why Dean Lonergan can get a pay per view audiences and corporates and UFC can sell out Vector Arena and have pubs paying a hefty fee to screen to a sport that enjoys less than half the following of motorsport (and those are Nielsen’s figures not mine).

[Armco Bender]

Theres another form of motorsport that plays to a sold out stadium over 2 days and has a huge pay per view audience and thats the Superstock Teams champs in Palmerston North.You have to sell your first born to get a ticket and I know heaps of motorsports fans who make this their number one go see each year.
If a TV network picks it up it would be bigger than Texas,its got everything,plenty of action,big hits and loud cars.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Theres another form of motorsport that plays to a sold out stadium over 2 days and has a huge pay per view audience and thats the Superstock Teams champs in Palmerston North.You have to sell your first born to get a ticket and I know heaps of motorsports fans who make this their number one go see each year.
If a TV network picks it up it would be bigger than Texas,its got everything,plenty of action,big hits and loud cars.

don't be silly AB. the live show is nearly on the same timeframe as the filmed coverage, there would enough time between races for a couple of adverts, then back live.

[promax]

which channel did I watch highlights of Teams champs? or was that a dream?

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by promax

which channel did I watch highlights of Teams champs? or was that a dream?

TV3 may have done a reveiw, we usually watch the online stream

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Theres another form of motorsport that plays to a sold out stadium over 2 days and has a huge pay per view audience and thats the Superstock Teams champs in Palmerston North.You have to sell your first born to get a ticket and I know heaps of motorsports fans who make this their number one go see each year.
If a TV network picks it up it would be bigger than Texas,its got everything,plenty of action,big hits and loud cars.

What date is it next year? Any idea.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by KRDG

What date is it next year? Any idea.

6-7 feb2015, provisional

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

6-7 feb2015, provisional

thanks

[smokin'joe]

unsure if this is the correct thread, but i feel it is more about the state of the nation, rather than a particular class issue.

now that V8s in NZ have shot themselves in the foot, Porcshes are now successful endurance cars and Productions are near on dead in the water............. can there still be hope for a "summer series" of some sort ??

after reading:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-tim...says-Highlands

regarding TRS being less profitable than drive/ride days at Cromwell,
and:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald...-series-a-blow

regarding TRS being the only drawcard they had left after bankrolling most of their year on the "main event", and refusing to admit there once was a club behind the smoke and mirrors of the circuit racing facade,

is it not time that a massive pool of egos nominated themselves for a charity punch-up along the lines of "fight fot life" and got all this nonsense sorted out, so the public, the sponsors and the teams come back and knuckle down to re-create the spectacle that once was ????

[isoskim]

The question is, do we actually need a formal summer series? Let's say for simplicity, we have one "V8 group" and the TRS series as our national championships, plus Formula Ford.

Is there any particular issue of having them run across different parts of the year? TRS are proving successful with their current format, if this is propped up by local classes and potentially 1-2 rounds of V8s, that could make quite a show. The V8's could then do their own thing and create their own events.

The point I come back to is that excluding these 3 classes + South Island Enduro (not knocking, great class and extremely well run) everyone else is essentially racing for chocolate fish. They have varying requirements from a national body, some require sanctioned series articles to provide a competitive framework for their competitors, some just want to go out and trash their modern cars, and then we have the classic scene.

I've been on both sides of the fence (both the MSNZ run Summer Series and the V8ST model) and can see merit in both. This model would put the onus back on the Race Organising Clubs to run better race meetings for the competitors and to try and attract the public. If an ROC is relying on a gate taking to make money, they will always struggle, especially in Auckland! Just look at the ton of promotion around Thunder in the Park, would have been a great meeting without the NZV8TC!

From my own experience, in the last 12 months the politics involved with this sport absolutely ruin it. I remember volunteering years ago and actually enjoying being involved. Now it seems like more of a chore to try and clean up the mess that others are leaving behind. Being at conference, the lack of desire for change was on show for all to see and the lack of leadership being shown by any of the elected office holders was bordering on pathetic (excluding Crunch, at least he is on here trying to respond!). and No, I didn't put my hand up, because I wouldn't be elected, it's that simple, I can already hear the reasons! It was great to see RogerH firing bullets in person though!

[smokin'joe]

isokim, politics killed the spectale many years ago when the so called top class has the season results decided in court rooms instead of on track.

as you well put it, apathy and egos killed it, and i honestly believe it is too late to return to the halcyon days of 15K on the bank at Levels for a full Sunday race card when the crowd numbers get fudged to come up with just over half that for the full weekend..................