Transferring HTPs

[Geraint Owen]

Just rung the MSA to enquire about transferring a set of HTPs to my name for a car I have just imported. The car in question has a new set of HTPs dated to end 2025. It appears that the FIA are introducing a new system whereby the car will need an entirely new application. Seems a bit harsh to me. I thought the whole point was they were transferable.

Be warned, they are trying to make it harder!

Geraint

[terence]

Every owner should just stand up and tell them to stuff it.HTPs are obviously just seen as a money spinner as they certainly dont seem to control the car spec's as originally intended.What would happen if no papers were presented at one of the so called FIA events, would it get cancelled?

[Mike Bell]

Assume the papers were issued by a National Association other than the MSA? From memory it has always been the case that papers have to be re-issued by the the new owner's Association when ownership moves to a different country.

However, I didn't appreciate that meant a new application when papers were still current! Makes the idea of selling a car with new papers not so clever if there is a chance buyer will be from another country. I do know of cars racing on their previously issued papers, despite having changed hands, scrutineers being more interested in the fact that they are current / correct rather than who issued them.... Probably depends on the significance of the car and importance of the event!

Or it may be cheaper to emigrate to the country that issued the papers?

[MGDavid]

where does any entry form ask for details of the car owner? The driver turns up with a car with valid HTP; he could be driving at the request of the owner, or borrowed it, or rented it, whatever. Who knows, who cares? Could this be another case of a European rule that other countries conveniently ignore while we Brits are too law-abiding for our own good?

[Will Nuthall]

Geraint - I would change it into your name in the issuing country but using the previous owners address (if they are happy with that) I can't see the address ever being used for anything anyway.
ps you'll be glad to hear a trip over to Monza is happening next year....

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Will Nuthall

Geraint - I would change it into your name in the issuing country but using the previous owners address (if they are happy with that) I can't see the address ever being used for anything anyway.
ps you'll be glad to hear a trip over to Monza is happening next year....

Will
That is a most cunning plan......
Now for a cunning plan to sort out getting to Monza......

Geraint

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by terence

Every owner should just stand up and tell them to stuff it.HTPs are obviously just seen as a money spinner as they certainly dont seem to control the car spec's as originally intended.What would happen if no papers were presented at one of the so called FIA events, would it get cancelled?

Agree..Lots of good club racing in the UK. i wonder what the Fia would do if everyone just entered non FIA events for a few months..Probably do UK motorsport the world of good!!

N.

[terence]

The point is that , ok, the blurb for an event may state "run to fia rules"
it will probably proudly display the fia logo as well.But FIA events for the cars that most run? Very few and far between, so if most entrants didn't present the "Fia HTP", would they get refused on the spot? I think EVERYONE knows the answer to that.I turned up at Spa 6hr three years running without my HTPs and it never caused a problem."Make sure you bring them next year"was about the harshest telling off I got.
If something isnt really what you lable it, dont sell it as something it isnt.

[Duddha]

May I just add to the general understanding that an FIA logo on an event only applies to the International Calendar registered race and this from period.

For example, when WSC Championship visited an event back in the 60s, 70s or 80s and up to now, only the FIA Championship races were FIA sanctioned, hence that the Spa 6 Hours for example run the Masters FIA Championship let's say, so only these races are subject to full FIA standard and strict enforcement of the HTP Papers. And same in period when WSC would run on the Nurburgring, the DRM, running to German rules was not concerned.

Adding another statement is important, HTPs are today mainly enforced by series or promoter as they say they are "sort of" running to Appendix K ruling but in situ, it's pretty much different.

While people, do or do not agree with the system, I was 9 or 10 by the time the proper and so-called FIA trophy for GT & TC falled appart in the early 2000s, a sad loss which happened because of the arrival of a promoter only looking at numbers...

However, what I remember is that cars were before that properly scrutineered back then, some of you might remember how terrible it was to face the scrutineers at Nürburgring... There was far less cheating/funny cars because the scrutineering was good and rules were back then, meant to be enforced. Not just promoters and organizers saying, "we're appendix k" but allowing stuff to sort of make the number and please customers as it is today.

I believe that to stand strong, it is a matter of taking the risk to enforce something, it might not be good in terms of numbers and finance at the beginning, of course, but in the end, stand strong and once people understand it, it works out better because there is a common line. We've ended in a world of historic racing which is more of "customer historic racing".

I walk the HTP line every day and I'm just unhappy to see historic cars ending up with funny aeros, or funny engine and drivetrain or being built by people not willing to understand history but only willing to sell and/or race performance and seeing the "good old boys" walking out of the sport because of some practice and cars being "funny".

HTP is not the sole problem, performance and how cars are now today handled, build and developped is a far bigger problem and maybe it's the reason why HTPs are getting more and more complicated to get... Just saying...

By the way, national/club papers exist and are eligible for some races within the issuing country but as we've witnessed, when someone builts a d-type with carbon fibre bodywork or full electronic injection and single throttle body on a Group 44 XJS Trans-Am car, is this really the spirit and what we want as historic racing ? I am happy for them to stay national/club cars, it's their fun and toys after all but they should race where this is allowed.

[Duddha]

The thing to remember about Appendix K is that it exist to ensure one particular aspect as well, a level playing field. If Appendix K didn’t exist or is not applied, it becomes modern racing with cars that tend to look historic.

A good read - here.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Duddha

May I just add to the general understanding that an FIA logo on an event only applies to the International Calendar registered race and this from period.

For example, when WSC Championship visited an event back in the 60s, 70s or 80s and up to now, only the FIA Championship races were FIA sanctioned, hence that the Spa 6 Hours for example run the Masters FIA Championship let's say, so only these races are subject to full FIA standard and strict enforcement of the HTP Papers. And same in period when WSC would run on the Nurburgring, the DRM, running to German rules was not concerned.

Adding another statement is important, HTPs are today mainly enforced by series or promoter as they say they are "sort of" running to Appendix K ruling but in situ, it's pretty much different.

While people, do or do not agree with the system, I was 9 or 10 by the time the proper and so-called FIA trophy for GT & TC falled appart in the early 2000s, a sad loss which happened because of the arrival of a promoter only looking at numbers...

However, what I remember is that cars were before that properly scrutineered back then, some of you might remember how terrible it was to face the scrutineers at Nürburgring... There was far less cheating/funny cars because the scrutineering was good and rules were back then, meant to be enforced. Not just promoters and organizers saying, "we're appendix k" but allowing stuff to sort of make the number and please customers as it is today.

I believe that to stand strong, it is a matter of taking the risk to enforce something, it might not be good in terms of numbers and finance at the beginning, of course, but in the end, stand strong and once people understand it, it works out better because there is a common line. We've ended in a world of historic racing which is more of "customer historic racing".

I walk the HTP line every day and I'm just unhappy to see historic cars ending up with funny aeros, or funny engine and drivetrain or being built by people not willing to understand history but only willing to sell and/or race performance and seeing the "good old boys" walking out of the sport because of some practice and cars being "funny".

HTP is not the sole problem, performance and how cars are now today handled, build and developped is a far bigger problem and maybe it's the reason why HTPs are getting more and more complicated to get... Just saying...

By the way, national/club papers exist and are eligible for some races within the issuing country but as we've witnessed, when someone builts a d-type with carbon fibre bodywork or full electronic injection and single throttle body on a Group 44 XJS Trans-Am car, is this really the spirit and what we want as historic racing ? I am happy for them to stay national/club cars, it's their fun and toys after all but they should race where this is allowed.

Not Fia Legal…. Yet runs its original Brazed Chassis, original body, Original rear uprights and Quills, Trunnions at front.



This one seems to be Fia legal these days….



Me thinks something must be wrong with the international rules when race preparers are forced to build cars that look like this one to be able to race in period!!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Duddha

May I just add to the general understanding that an FIA logo on an event only applies to the International Calendar registered race and this from period.

For example, when WSC Championship visited an event back in the 60s, 70s or 80s and up to now, only the FIA Championship races were FIA sanctioned, hence that the Spa 6 Hours for example run the Masters FIA Championship let's say, so only these races are subject to full FIA standard and strict enforcement of the HTP Papers. And same in period when WSC would run on the Nurburgring, the DRM, running to German rules was not concerned.

Adding another statement is important, HTPs are today mainly enforced by series or promoter as they say they are "sort of" running to Appendix K ruling but in situ, it's pretty much different.

While people, do or do not agree with the system, I was 9 or 10 by the time the proper and so-called FIA trophy for GT & TC falled appart in the early 2000s, a sad loss which happened because of the arrival of a promoter only looking at numbers...

However, what I remember is that cars were before that properly scrutineered back then, some of you might remember how terrible it was to face the scrutineers at Nürburgring... There was far less cheating/funny cars because the scrutineering was good and rules were back then, meant to be enforced. Not just promoters and organizers saying, "we're appendix k" but allowing stuff to sort of make the number and please customers as it is today.

I believe that to stand strong, it is a matter of taking the risk to enforce something, it might not be good in terms of numbers and finance at the beginning, of course, but in the end, stand strong and once people understand it, it works out better because there is a common line. We've ended in a world of historic racing which is more of "customer historic racing".

I walk the HTP line every day and I'm just unhappy to see historic cars ending up with funny aeros, or funny engine and drivetrain or being built by people not willing to understand history but only willing to sell and/or race performance and seeing the "good old boys" walking out of the sport because of some practice and cars being "funny".

HTP is not the sole problem, performance and how cars are now today handled, build and developped is a far bigger problem and maybe it's the reason why HTPs are getting more and more complicated to get... Just saying...

By the way, national/club papers exist and are eligible for some races within the issuing country but as we've witnessed, when someone builts a d-type with carbon fibre bodywork or full electronic injection and single throttle body on a Group 44 XJS Trans-Am car, is this really the spirit and what we want as historic racing ? I am happy for them to stay national/club cars, it's their fun and toys after all but they should race where this is allowed.

Goodness me! Sad to read....not trying to be the harbinger of doom Louis, but it sounds like the horse has already bolted!

[275 GTB-4]

Thus really sounds like bureaucracy gone mad coupled with a money grab...shirley these dopes realise that whenever an original HTP is reissued and reissued again that it is an ideal opportunity to legitimise a fake and is open to abuse or whatever?

[zefarelly]

Unfortunately App K and any other rules merely state the obvious, and keep moving with safety legislation.

More thorough preparation specialists will explore any advantage within this window.

equally, original homologation papers are vague in places, ie, where wheels are located withing the bodyshell . . .dimensions appeared from door corners to wheel centres later on, but not generally pre '66 . . . so they shift, as does the weight distribution.

use of modern materials is commonplace in engines, but also now on drive train components. It has to be done or the standard parts will fall apart. It would be cheaper and easier to peg back the engines, but, as SImon H once said here, we can't unlearn what we've already learned.

At least until we're too old to care. Which is were the retired pro's come in and get paid to say that's how it was!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Unfortunately what you are saying about competitors is true, the problem is it seems to be happening anyway.
Some drivers interest in a car appears to only go as far as what events will it get me in, such people presumably have no interest in whether the car is anything like it was originally.
Many of the preparation companies (and seemingly FIA employees) are too young to know how historic cars were in period and don't have the time/resources/inclination to do the research.

An approach based on setting out the appropriate specification for a particular model or class of car (as with homologated cars) might involve a lot less bureaucracy. It might shift the emphasis on checking to the series scrutineers but they should have a greater knowledge and understanding of that particular type of car anyway.

The current situation where each car is treated individually seems to involve a lot of unnecessary duplication (not to mention education of "inspectors") which must increase the expense and cause delays.

Or the FIA could stick to the logistical issues and leave the choice of cars up to race organisers, the public and competitors would then have the ultimate decision in what is acceptable!

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Unfortunately App K and any other rules merely state the obvious, and keep moving with safety legislation.

More thorough preparation specialists will explore any advantage within this window.

equally, original homologation papers are vague in places, ie, where wheels are located withing the bodyshell . . .dimensions appeared from door corners to wheel centres later on, but not generally pre '66 . . . so they shift, as does the weight distribution.

use of modern materials is commonplace in engines, but also now on drive train components. It has to be done or the standard parts will fall apart. It would be cheaper and easier to peg back the engines, but, as SImon H once said here, we can't unlearn what we've already learned.

At least until we're too old to care. Which is were the retired pro's come in and get paid to say that's how it was!

Thanks for your comments and truly we are working at getting the system work better, faster and let's say stronger, Rome wasn't built in a day, but we will get there. Regulations are never perfect and will never be, loopholes exist and that's part of motor sport but well, I like to think that with a bit of education, thinking and hard work, it won't get out of control too much.

[zefarelly]

The Gray Lady was a bit of fun, and yes, a ridiculous hot rod, but the 50's saloons have always been a bit of a blank canvass, although only for Goodwood and its spectacle, most of the regular HRDC cars run to a pragmatic set of regulations and are generally well adhered to ( I've built a fair few engines across the series and never a bent one, the engines aren't generally the weak link!)

Engines in many series, U2TC for example, are, I think, generally correct, and relatively level, the focus now seems to be on handling . . . another issue entirely, what I always notice is that for a mass produced production car you rarely see 2 the same! There are plenty of accurate genuine original cars out there so I believe its time the FiA measured a few of those and nailed a few datum in the ground.

THere are also lots of dimensions in the homologation papers of various cars which seem to get ignored and have been overuled, or rendered irrelevant by App K.

I haven't read J or K for a while, but J is far tighter on what was allowed. ie nothing if it didnt specifically say so.

[FISCracer]

Like Terry I think we should just ignore the FIA and HTPs

Lets face it many FIA cars do not comply with their papers except on the day they are inspected and there is no eligibility scutineering at events, so cheating is rife.

In addition to the FIA money grab for new papers, many owners are no finding their cars require substantial work to comply to 'revised' homologations that have never been discussed or gone through due process. All this will do is to reduce grids and drive costs up for race organisers and competitors.

I have 5 FIA cars and only one has new, current papers. Those were issued earlier this year as a condition of sale before I imported it. If they seriously expect me to pay again for another inspection, I have a suggestion as to where they can put their papers ;-)

[Geraint Owen]

Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

Cant decide if I will bother or not

[Will Nuthall]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

Cant decide if I will bother or not

You can't stick the barcode on yourself any more.
That said just have them stick it on at an event where an inspector is present. With the new papers they have the barcode before the papers are issued anyway.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

The inspection fee goes to the inspector, from my experience, so nothing for MSA to gain directly from that. What I'm not understanding, though, is- Does it mean that while attaching the sticker at a a race meeting, the inspector checks the spec is correct, you have to pay another fee? If he travels to you in order to attach the barcode, there must be travel expenses involved, at least....

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

Having heard nothing, I called the MSA today

After "discussions" with the FIA they now accept that they have to transfer papers from other ASNs..... BUT there is a catch. They are insisting an inspector comes out to put a new bar code on. And whilst they are with the car they will check that it is still in the spec as presented on the papers

I cant decide if this is simply another MSA con and they are actually just enabling themselves to charge for another inspection or whether a check that the car hasn't been mucked about with post paper issue is a good idea. I was told this could be done at a meeting if an inspector was there

Cant decide if I will bother or not

I would say that the MSA is right to impose such practice. Some countries don't ever inspect the car and are not bothered respecting the prescriptions that are made.

The result is cars being put together for pictures and once they have the barcode, they are just a completely different spec.

In a way, the MSA through its registrars is checking that the car still complies with the papers and that validates the transfer. The cost of that inspection is to cover the registrar expenses (knowing the MSA system).

Again, no system is perfect and cannot be but at least they didn't ask you to pay for a full set of papers...

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

Like Terry I think we should just ignore the FIA and HTPs

Lets face it many FIA cars do not comply with their papers except on the day they are inspected and there is no eligibility scutineering at events, so cheating is rife.

In addition to the FIA money grab for new papers, many owners are no finding their cars require substantial work to comply to 'revised' homologations that have never been discussed or gone through due process. All this will do is to reduce grids and drive costs up for race organisers and competitors.

I have 5 FIA cars and only one has new, current papers. Those were issued earlier this year as a condition of sale before I imported it. If they seriously expect me to pay again for another inspection, I have a suggestion as to where they can put their papers ;-)

Nothing is mandatory with FIA HTP, if you wanna walk away from that system, you can. National ASN have their own papers and you could do with these but you would have to race at national level only.

The money that the FIA grabs, well, don't forget that ASNs have authority on this and can add whatever amount they wish to, to the FIA fee. There are no revised homologations in general. Some past practice are being corrected because they were too large at a certain time or strict regulations enforcement was not the practice by then...

[zefarelly]

I've just instigated the renewal/replacement of the HTP on PEA, and thus far its been a doddle . . . despite agreeing to write off 2 weeks over Christmas, I've spoken to Jim Lowry a few times and we should be done and dusted early January.

Assuming he doesn't notice the traction control, 6 speed sequential, 6 pots calipers and 6 way adjustable titanium dampers

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I've just instigated the renewal/replacement of the HTP on PEA, and thus far its been a doddle . . . despite agreeing to write off 2 weeks over Christmas, I've spoken to Jim Lowry a few times and we should be done and dusted early January.

Assuming he doesn't notice the traction control, 6 speed sequential, 6 pots calipers and 6 way adjustable titanium dampers

All on the special export spec, surely? Think you'll find Jim reads a lot of this stuff, BTW!

[zefarelly]

I'm sure he does, as do many others, who don't post.

Occaisionally, I'd like to think some good comes from it, its generally more constructive and better informed then the 'look at me look at me' online media outlets.

I will continue to speak the truth, as I see it, and if silent onlookers don't like it, who are we to care.