Has Vettel been humbled by Bourdais?

[Born Racer]

Bourdais has also made a few errors that have seen him in the odd gravel trap, but he seems to be doing a solid job and has the measure ever so slightly of the supposed "next big thing" Vettel.

Is this just a blip for Sebastian or do you think Sebastien will show him the way for the rest of the year? I'm aware we should try to avoid, for want of a term, 'over-analysing' or excessive scrutiny of drivers (of course we will analyse them, but I mean not trying to read too much into individual elements of a driver's performance).

[enemy-ace]

I don't think that Vettel has been overshadowed but Bourdais has certainly shown that he is deserving to be in F1.
If anything, I think the powers that be at STR should be credited for signing two completely different yet complimentary drivers. The young lion and veteran racing driver are punching above their weight IMO.

[Born Racer]

Toro Rosso have slipped back a lot compared to Red Bull though. Last year they sometimes beat them. This year, that's not anywhere near happening. I wonder if Red Bull no longer give them much assistance, whatever form that assistance may have taken.

[WapFlap]

Toro Rosso has driven all the 2008 Grandprix so far with the 2007 car. When they get the new Red Bull chassis they will make some progress. It will be interesting to see which team will perform better as both teams have solid drivers. The only thing that is different is the engine. We'll see!

[spider]

I have been surprised at how Bourdais has out-raced and qualified Vettel a few times already, got to admit i expected a bit of a transition-period. They seem evenly matched, which is testament to both drivers' abilities. Now the new car is introduced it'll be interesting to see who comes out on top...

[Aysedasi]

OK, perhaps this is a silly question - but can someone tell me why Vettel is considered to be 'the next big thing'?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

OK, perhaps this is a silly question - but can someone tell me why Vettel is considered to be 'the next big thing'?

I don't think he is the next big thing but is one of them. His debut in the BMW was pretty good and he has sometimes had the TR up where it shouldn't have been. And he's only a kid (is he 21 yet?). He has been unlucky this year with early DNF's in a lot of races so far but he was quite good in Oz as I recall.

Bourdais has been excellent it must be said.

[spider]

I remember talking to a certain, very well known PR person who was working for BMW at the time, who is very close to Vettel commenting just a year ago at the Silverstone F1 test that SV had to win RWS last season otherwise his career really would be in trouble.

Fast forward a year and he's hugely hyped...interesting...

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by WapFlap

The only thing that is different is the engine. We'll see!

Theres also the guys in the pitlane setting the cars up and putting them together, thats perhaps more critical tha any different aero bits Red Bull arent letting them use yet. In Turkey IIRC Vettel made a few comments about making too many changes to the car at once and not being able to find the balance. Theyre still Minardi at heart.

I think Vettel is being humbled, but i dont think he himself would particularly car or even be aware. Bourdais will know that you get results by being there at the end of the day which could be his advantage right now. Vettel will still be learning alot, the races already completed and some of the ones coming up, he wouldve only done a handful of laps around. Bourdais is the same of course, indeed he's in a worse position perhaps only having driven at Barcelona previously. He's perhaps taking a more mature approach though.

[Taprobane]

Vettel has been really rather unlucky this season being hit when other people have made mistakes early on rather than it being his own fault.

I think it's best to wait until at least half way through the season before any judgments are made.

[BootsOntheSide]

No he hasn't. He's 3-2 up on qualifying (reaching a later stage on each occasion), and the race results are skewed by Vettel having a first-lap engine failure and two first-lap crashes he wasn't to blame for. Bourdais has had a spin and two crashes (although he probably wasn't to blame for Spain). We won't really know which driver is better until the team has its new car, and we reach more circuits both drivers have previously raced at. It will be an injustice if Bourdais finishes ahead in the championship due to a reliable run in Australia.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

OK, perhaps this is a silly question - but can someone tell me why Vettel is considered to be 'the next big thing'?

His Friday performances have been quite impressive and most series he entered he performed pretty well in. He's got talent in spades. Once he calms down a bit and refines his skill as he goes along and gets older, he could very well be one of the top drivers within the next two or three years. Give him some time.

As for being humbled by Bourdais, it might be that people underestimated Bourdais. The typical "oh, he comes from one of those no-skill-required american open wheel series, so doesn't really have to be THAT good in F1" thinking could be proven wrong as far as his person is concerned. I wouldn't mind seeing him in a BMW for example. His personality and work ethos would fit right in and I think he could make the car really work. Should Heidfeld quit, Bourdais would fit right in for two years more.

And the STR3 is going to be the RBR4 in Melbourne spec, so the chassis won't be as competitive as the current RBR one.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Satorian

As for being humbled by Bourdais, it might be that people underestimated Bourdais. The typical "oh, he comes from one of those no-skill-required american open wheel series, so doesn't really have to be THAT good in F1" thinking

Actually I got the impression that many expected more from a four time Champ Car champion. Before the season I wouldn't have been surprised to see him outpace Vettel comfortably, which he hasn't so far.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Actually I got the impression that many expected more from a four time Champ Car champion. Before the season I wouldn't have been surprised to see him outpace Vettel comfortably, which he hasn't so far.

Vettel himself is already a seriously quick guy. How was Bourdais supposed to comfortably outpace him? I think the current STR lineup is one of those occasions where being judged by your performance in comparison to your teammate doesn't yield much information. I'm pretty sure that both punch above their weight in the STR2.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Satorian

Vettel himself is already a seriously quick guy. How was Bourdais supposed to comfortably outpace him?

Because Bourdais is a seriously quick guy too and has lots more experience. Granted, Vettel has more in the actual car - maybe things will look different when both drivers basically start from square one with the new one?

As I said, I wouldn't have been surprised had Bourdais been quicker. But there are certainly good reasons why it's not surprising that he wasn't, either.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Because Bourdais is a seriously quick guy too and has lots more experience. Granted, Vettel has more in the actual car - maybe things will look different when both drivers basically start from square one with the new one?

If both are bloody quick and in the same car, wouldn't they then be about equally quick? It's like Alonso and Hamilton. Why couldn't the two times WDC comfortably outpace the newbie? Because both are as quick as drivers get and their just wasn't much headroom.

And didn't Bourdais manage to reach Q2 at times when Vettel didn't? And as for Bourdais' experience: it wasn't in an F1 car. Bourdais himself stated how different the car was and how much adapting the tyres alone needed.

As I said, I wouldn't have been surprised had Bourdais been quicker. But there are certainly good reasons why it's not surprising that he wasn't, either.

It's not necessarily surprising that he's not outshining Vettel. But would he have been, say, alongside Ralf Schuhmacher at Toyota, then Ralf would probably have looked pretty bad pretty quickly. For example I'd love to see Bourdais turn up in a third RBR car and race Coulthard and Webber on equal grounds to get some benchmark for his performance. Or put him in the BMW and compare him to Heidfeld. I think he would do so quite favourably.

Generally though I think most people had lowered expectations as to Seabass' performance. Yet he has done a very solid job so far. And I think there's more to come.

[mac]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

It will be an injustice if Bourdais finishes ahead in the championship due to a reliable run in Australia.

Huh? I don't comprehend this...

Bourdais drove brilliantly in Melbourne, and was pulling away from the Kovalainen/Alonso battle before his engine detinated. How you could begrudge him points earned from that drive is mystifying to me...

Motor racing is full of instances like this - Webber owned Coulthard last season, but Coulthard ended up with more points. Coulthard is lauded for scoring Red Bull's first podium at Monaco - but many neglect the fact that his team mate Klien was in front of Coulthard when he was forced to retire.

I like to think that most sensible people can look past the numbers on a piece of paper to find the real story.

Anyway, these two have been pretty even so far this season. I don't think it is necessary to start proclaiming winners or humblings just for the sake of it - when they have clearly been quite level to date.

[Born Racer]

I don't think it is necessary to start proclaiming winners or humblings just for the sake of it - when they have clearly been quite level to date.

Me neither, and I hope I made that sufficiently clear in the first post. 'Humbled' may have been a misleading term because I'm not so much talking about Vettel's own opinion of his ability, but the public perception.

Yes, it is a bit early to say for sure who's doing the best, but speculation is our forte here on internet forums, where we convene to do just that

This was one of the pre-season team-mate battle predictions I found harder to choose my answer for. I did say Bourdais. But perhaps by next year, Vettel will be the better of the two.

[Knowlesy]

I think we should let Vettel get past lap one before making a judgement on this.

Bourdais has performed as I expected, pretty well.

[joe rossi]

how can anyone tell how good Vettel is?

Has he made it to the second corner in a race yet?

[Kai]

A lot of people thought Vettel would walk Bourdais... so if anyone is humbled it should be those people?

[JeremySmith]

Both very talented drivers...Who thought that Vettel was going to spank Bourdais by the way?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by joe rossi

how can anyone tell how good Vettel is?

Has he made it to the second corner in a race yet?

Totally off topic, is that one of the reporters from the TV series Lou Grant as your avatar?? If so, why??

[Graz]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Both very talented drivers...Who thought that Vettel was going to spank Bourdais by the way?

I think people expected 'Sea Bass' to struggle because he'd been in Indycars so long and if he was good enough, he would have been in F1 sooner.

Just shows how blinkered the F1 folk are in a way. Bourdais has been brilliant, driver of the season so far in some ways.

Interesting that he wears his glasses racing rather than contacts or getting the eyes lazered. It's very uncool but cool for being uncool...

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Kai

A lot of people thought Vettel would walk Bourdais... so if anyone is humbled it should be those people?

I seem to recall that in the pre-season 'which team-mate will come out on top?' thread, Toro Rosso was one that a lot of people found difficult to call. Vettel has had a much worse start to the season than people expected, and the car isn't exactly on the pace (although that may improve now that they've got the new car). I also think Bourdais is doing better than a lot of people thought he would - success in America isn't always a good omen for being a success in F1, so it's not too surprising that expectations were quite low.

A lot of people seem to have got a bit overexcited about Vettel last season - I'm sure he's quick, but let's not forget that he's very young and has a lot of developing still to do. I think we'll see him improve over the course of the season, and in the end there might not be much to choose between the two of them.