Brabham BT23

[allenbrown]

Good question. I'm not clear on whether it raced at the end of 1967 or whether all those BT23C appearances in Sep/Oct are just BT23C/1. Chris, what do you reckon?

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT23C-5
1968 Winklemann for Rindt, Vic Elford, accident Monza July 23rd New frame. Old frame sold to Ian Lees who built up a new car, now owned by Frank Curcio, Melbourne
1969 Graham Birrell
1973-7? Joe Applegarth reported as using parts from BT23C-16
nothing more ‘till
2000 Bevan Weston, for sale.
2003 Justin Segal, Bloomfield, USA

is only partly correct, and my thanks to Joe Applegarth for the following details. (He has been following our discussion and I am very grateful for his help)

Stan Robinson and John Blankley bought the wrecked remains of BT23C-5, around the end of 1969. Gearbox, engine and suspension were fitted to a Unipower GT, this was subsequently heavily damaged and the parts recovered and used to create an open 2 seater, the SAR by John Blankley.
The Ecuries Ecosse chassis, BT23C-5, RF11 was repaired, most likely by Arch, and was acquired by Joe along with remaining parts, BT23C-16 then was bought from Johnny Blades and parts used on BT23C-5. It was fitted with FT200 and 1600 pushrod and first raced in August 1973.
All up BT23C-5 did 130 events with Joe who retired in 1978 and still has BT23C-5.

more to follow in due course, but the first question must be what does Justin Segal have 'cause it sure 'aint BT23C-5,

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

but the first question must be what does Justin Segal have 'cause it sure 'aint BT23C-5,

no, Justin Segal did have BT23C-7, I assume bought from Bevan Weston and sold to Tom Claridge? and now with Ted Wentz.
I guess I picked up on the wrong number or it was incorrectly reported.

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

ah! now I see who got it wrong! -on nvo.com

Subject Brabham BT23C-5 For Sale

Date Sat Aug 26 2000 16:52
Author Bevan Weston (www.sales@midvalleyeng.com)



This is the Frank Williams 1968 BT23C Formula Two driven by Piers Courage and others. Exact original specification in dark blue with Williams logo. In excellent raceworthy condition. New Cosworth FVA and Hewland FT200 (0 hours) fitted by Kerry Adams. Currently located in England. Full and interesting history, complete with FIA Papers. I'm told it's worth more, but will take around US$100k.May be willing to do deal if you have something interesting to trade. Will add picture soon.

[Andrew Fellowes]

this is an already known ad under the title Racing and CCMP Monoposto
1974 A/S Nov 28, p.57 BT23C ex Gethin, two championship places out of three outings, ...Morley Ford 1600 Tel: 01 567 3941 evenings

CCMP ?
01 567 where?

and then there is this,
1974 A/S Jun 13, p.29 Aintree, Monoposto Formula National Championship Round, fastest lap, Baillie and John Boughton, (1.6 Brabham Swindon/Ford BT23C)

any connection? I don't think I've come across John Boughton before, ??

Andrew

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

01 567 where?

It became 071 567 then 0171 567 then 0208 567. It's West London; Shepherd's Bush, Ealing, somewhere round there.

[Andrew Fellowes]

I think I just might junk my UK area code page, it came up with Killin which is at the end of Loch Tay is it not? -(having climbed a lot of the country around there)
many thanks,

[Andrew Fellowes]

back to BT23C-5 and what is interesting is that it is RF11, and it was a new frame after the Monza accident on June 23rd '68.
Isn't this quite an early number?

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

This BT23 has recently been found and is undergoing restoration. I have been asked which one is it? and I simply dont know. It has a double roll hoop, now I know BT23C-5 and BT23C-6 both had doubles but I dont know any BT23s.



The history is as follows;
It purchased on 20.10.1968 from R.Legget and Alan Rees (Winkelmann team). The understanding was it was ex Jochen Rindt. The car was brought to Lugano in Switzerland where it went through Swiss customs. Then the car went to Brambilla at Monza in Italy. (reported as Dino Brambilla?)
The BT23 was mostly driven by Brambilla. But it was also used by Enzo Corti, when his own car was damaged.

After the Carnet from the “Camera del Commercio di Lugano ", expired (probably 5 years) the car went back to Switzerland in parts, and apparently some parts went missing.
Since then its been stored by the original purchaser ‘till being sold to the present owner who is restoring it. That would suggest its only had three owners from new.

The chassis is brazed and the workmanship is of a type that would not have been found in Switzerland or Italy at that time but typical of that from England.

It has RF5 on the chassis, but it can't be BT23-1, nor can it be BT23-4 as that was bought by Habegger and then Pillon, and all the other BT23s are accounted for in 1968.

The only thing at the moment that I can think of is that it was a spare chassis that Winklemann had? Is this likely?

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Is this BT23-2 that had BT23-4 scratched on the chassis during a rebuild mix up? The dates would just tie in with Corti at Vallelunga in October '68 and then with Brambilla.
just a thought.

[Andrew Fellowes]

(reported as Dino Brambilla?)

Correction, Tino

Andrew

[Ted Walker]

Is this the car that ran with an Alfa GTA engine in period ????

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Is this the car that ran with an Alfa GTA engine in period ????

Ted, that was 23-8. Allegedly still around in Italy

A couple of bits of supporting evidence for the Applegarth story:

MN 9.7.70 p. 18 Stanley Robinson has purchaed ex Ecosse BT23C [so Birrell's 23C-5] to use FVA in special saloon Unipower

AS 22.8.74 p.47 describes Applegarth's BT23C as 'ex Ecosse'

[allenbrown]

The story describes the car we know as BT23-2 which appears for Tino Brambilla at Tulln-Langenlebarn on 14 July 1968 and then for Enzo Corti at Vallelunga on 27 Oct 1968. Autosport said it was ex-Hulme at Tulln although Speedworld International thought it was a new BT23C. I have both entries as Scuderia Picchio Rossa.

But why bought from Winkelmann? Did Winkelmann do a deal to sell off the ex-works cars when the BT23Cs came out? Just how closely connected were MRD and Winkelmann?

And why Lugano instead of Italy? And who were Scuderia Picchio Rossa?

[Simon Hadfield]

I thought there were originally four double-rollhoop cars, the Winklemann pair, Courage and Ahrens? The Rindt and Rees cars were done first then Courage had his done to be like Jochen and finally the Ahrens car as I think he was related in some way to Jochen (via Nina perhaps?).

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I thought there were originally four double-rollhoop cars, the Winklemann pair, Courage and Ahrens? The Rindt and Rees cars were done first then Courage had his done to be like Jochen and finally the Ahrens car as I think he was related in some way to Jochen (via Nina perhaps?).

to which you can add Max Mosleys' BT23C-6 seen here after Arnold Charlton went through a fence.



As to the relationship between Winklemann and MRD and I wonder how it worked, why for instance did Hulme take Rindts' car to NZ and then get his own car as a replacement? I can understand if the ownership were to stay with MRD such as the relationship Ron Dennis had, but how did Rees get involved?
Is the story that the car was ex Winklemann related to the alleged chassis swap between BT23-2 and BT23-4. We know Autosport was quite confused at the time!!

It really looks like BT23-2 at the moment, some period photos to check the roll hoop might help, in particular when Tino drove it,

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

..... And who were Scuderia Picchio Rossa?

Corrado Manfredini and his business associate was Giampiero Moretti (MoMo steering wheels)

Andrew

[allenbrown]

Source?!

And if it's that Ferrari 512 history, you lose a point.

[Andrew Fellowes]

errr ... may be ...

Classic driver . com

Sold soon afterwards to Corrado Manfredini’s Scuderia Picchio Rosso and renumbered

is it ?

[Andrew Fellowes]

OK, so it is,
how many points do I have left?

Andrew

[Bryan Miller]

Reported that Hulme believed Rindt's chassis/car was better than Hulme's own regular mount as the reason for Hulme bringing out 23C-5 for the Tasman.

I understood Winkleman Racing was a de-facto factory effort.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

errr ... may be ...

Classic driver . com


is it ?

I'm not totally sure I believe everything in that Ferrari 512 history and it's worrying that it's been reproduced in so many places across the web. Manfredini may just have been a driver. Italians tended to have clubs rather than teams so it's also possible that Manfredini owned the 512 but didn't necessarily 'own' Scuderia Picchio Rossa.

By the way, it's interesting that the sports car team was Picchio Rosso and the F2 team Picchio Rossa. The Great Spotted Woodpecker (Dendrocopos major) is Picchio Rosso but I guess Picchio Rossa is a female woodpecker. I wonder if the two names were deliberate or if everyone has got the Rossa bit from F1R and it was a typo.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

By the way, it's interesting that the sports car team was Picchio Rosso and the F2 team Picchio Rossa. .......... I wonder if the two names were deliberate or if everyone has got the Rossa bit from F1R and it was a typo.

Maybe a typo as if you look at the following you will see that Autosport supports the male version,


1968 October 27th Vallelunga,
A/S says;

... while the Italian driver Corrado Manfredini was driving his own BT23C (No 12) for Scuderia Picchio Rosso. The Rosso team also entered an earlier BT23 for the Italian BWA Formula 3 driver Enzo Corti ...

further more if this is the first appearance of the team would it strengthen the claim Corrado was a major player? Do you have anything earlier?

Andrew

[Denis Lupton]

I believe the Tasman we are talking about was 1967-1968, so the Rindt car that Denny Hulme used first was BT23-5, the BT23C's being the 1968 car's,
and had late delivery as well.
Denis

[Andrew Fellowes]

1970 Monza June 21st

A/S June 25th p.19

Scuderia Picchio Rosso entered the Brambilla brothers, Ernesto with his ex works Ferrari Dino 166 and Vittorio with his updated 1967 Brabham BT23

so still with an O