Should it be top 4 not top 3?

[Mr V]

Just looking at the Championship standings after todays race and was surprised to see that Jenson is only 12 points behind Lewis. Now, considering the tyre problem that he had at Silverstone and Hydraulic problem at Nurburgring, neither of which were his fault then only a 12 point deficit is incredible imo.

Considering this and also considering that (no matter what order we'd personally put them in) Lewis is one of the top 3 drivers and many saying a gap to Jenson, Mark, Felipe, shouldn't we now consider the top 4, not top 3?

Jenson has showed (in 2009) that he can win in the dry, it's just that he excels in the slippery wet/dry conditions, but is this enough to put him as a "top" driver?

Thoughts?

[JeremySmith]

I think so yes he has proved that he is one of the very best. McLaren would never have signed him otherwise IMHO...

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Just looking at the Championship standings after todays race and was surprised to see that Jenson is only 12 points behind Lewis. Now, considering the tyre problem that he had at Silverstone and Hydraulic problem at Nurburgring, neither of which were his fault then only a 12 point deficit is incredible imo.

Considering this and also considering that (no matter what order we'd personally put them in) Lewis is one of the top 3 drivers and many saying a gap to Jenson, Mark, Felipe, shouldn't we now consider the top 4, not top 3?

Jenson has showed (in 2009) that he can win in the dry, it's just that he excels in the slippery wet/dry conditions, but is this enough to put him as a "top" driver?

Thoughts?

In terms of talent I don't think you could put a fag paper between Hamilton and Button, in fact those are the exact words I used earlier today when boring my wife. Very different characters and very different driving styles but through a season both right up there. I guess that supports your suggestion that with Alonso and Vettel that makes the top four.

[stripedcat]

I would say Vettel and Alonso are the top 2. Then Hamilton, then Button. Jenson is very good when conditions go from wet to dry or the other way around. In full wet weather I think Hamilton has the edge on him. Plus in qualifying and in a badly balanced car I think Hamilton can out perform him.

Vettel overtook Alonso today. Jury is still out, on whether he can race in traffic though.

[strider]

Yes.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Button's a class act without doubt. I agree, top 4.

[Super Hans]

It won't be a popular view but still think there's a Top 2 (Alonso & Hamilton), then perhaps a second tier (Vettel and Button).

[Marbot]

Button also had a KERS failure in the Valencia race. So maybe that's his three bits of bad luck out of the way?

Where are we off the next? Oh, yes. Spa! Scene of Button's early retirement due to no fault of his own in last seasons race there.

[phoenix]

Consider this....

There have been three teams who have won Grand Prix this year - Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari. So in simple terms, on the day, their (and I mean the team) cars have been good enough. However, the only winning drivers have been Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso. No Webber or Massa wins - so far at least.

Today Button 'raced' against Hamilton and beat him, incidentally winning the race at the same time. I don't believe Button has the aggressive edge that maybe is the difference between him and Hamilton. He doesn't go for 50/50 overtake chances for example. I don't believe he is as able, or more probably, as willing, to push his car beyond the limits that he is comfortable with - but he does tend to stay on track, not spin, avoid contact with other cars..... But I do rate him as great in judging the grip levels available to him and pushing the car he has under him right up to that limit. He has proved that on many occasions, not just today, and he is also pretty hot when it comes to tyre choices/strategies/pit stop timing. Hence his obvious prowess in changing weather conditions.

I think this puts him right up there on the first tier with Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton and I don't think it is really possible to split their abilities and skill levels by more than half a gnats cock. Anything he lacks in what could be called aggression I think he makes up for with what might be called intelligence.

OK - I have said my piece!

[garcon]

Interesting that one or two have suggested there's a top four that further breaks down into a top two, but put different drivers in that top two.

I agree it's now a top four. If there's a further divide, I think I'd put Vettel and Alonso in the top tier with Button and Hamilton (very) close behind.

I don't think we should underestimate Alonso's achievement in gaining consistent podium finishes with that Ferrari. Nor should we dismiss Vettel as a one hit wonder until he's had chance to prove otherwise.

[strider]

Originally Posted by garcon

Interesting that one or two have suggested there's a top four that further breaks down into a top two, but put different drivers in that top two.

I agree it's now a top four. If there's a further divide, I think I'd put Vettel and Alonso in the top tier with Button and Hamilton (very) close behind.

I agree.

Originally Posted by garcon

I don't think we should underestimate Alonso's achievement in gaining consistent podium finishes with that Ferrari. Nor should we dismiss Vettel as a one hit wonder until he's had chance to prove otherwise.

Again, I agree. Alonso has had a string of podiums lately in what has not been the fastest car, except when he won.

As for Vettel, he's very close to becoming a two hit wonder and it won't be at the last race of the season this year.

[Razzzor]

Some of you will hate my comparison, but I don't think Button is even close to Hamilton. Or Vettel or Alonso, in fact I rate Webber higher than Button as well.

If you take away all the incidents and tough luck Hamilton has had this year, he'd probably be a long way ahead of Button in points. Same thing last year. I'm not a fan of either driver, so no bias there.

In dry conditions, Hungary would have been Hamilton vs Vettel.

Button's been up to over a second a lap slower than Hamilton on a number of occasions this year and when things go right for Hamilton, Button isn't close. When Button can start winning on a dry track in a non-dominant car, maybe i'll be proven wrong. But he's yet to do this in his career.

Here's the breakdown: Button's maiden win was in the wet at Hungary. We all remember that race, it was a fantastic drive, probably his best ever.
The 2 years following his best result was a 5th! Then in 2009 came the dominant Brawn which gave him 6 wins, 2 of which were wet.
His 2010 wins; Australia in the same wet-drying conditions and only after Vettel retired from the lead, and China which was another wet race where Hamilton probably should have won but got caught napping.

Then 2011 two wet-drying race wins. Button is great at driving in these wet-dry conditions, but take that away and all he has are 4 dry wins to his name in the dominant Brawn.

And the strange thing is that I rate Hamilton and Vettel as wet weather specialists, not Button. Give us some heavy rain and Button's advantage is gone. In fact Webber and Alonso aren't too bad in rain either, and Schumacher is one of the best. I can't put Button in the same league as someone like Alonso who has 27 race wins, very few of which would have been wet.

[mac]

In terms of the best driver out there, I think Alonso and Vettel are clearly one and two... They are the two guys that bring it to the track every single weekend and, no matter what the conditions or adversity, they deliver every race.

They are uncompromising in the consistency of their performances - especially Alonso.

After that I would put the two McLaren drivers... Lewis for his incredible natural talent, his aggression, and his ability to grab the car by the scruff of the neck and wrestle speed out of it. Jenson because, while I don't necessarily believe he is the equal of Lewis on talent, no other driver does more with what they have (in terms of talent).

For so much of last year when we watched Button struggling to get heat into his tyres, it's somewhat ironic that the very same driving style would pay dividends the following year when the Pirellis were introduced, and brought with them an increased importance on keeping the tyres cool and not over-heating them.

I would have Webber just behind the McLaren two - anyone that can run as close as he has done with Vettel throughout their history is pretty good if you ask me.

And I would have Kubica probably level with the McLaren boys as well...

[baclightning]

The top tier, in no particular order, is Hamilton, Button, Alonso, Vettel. They have different strengths and weaknesses, but they're all great drivers who, not coincidentally, have won the World Championship.

[deeks6]

Superstars = Vettel, Alonso

A - Graders = Button, Hamilton (when not running into people), Webber, Rosberg, Kobayashi, Di Resta

[dsg]

I believe Button, like a few other drivers, needs things to fall into place to get a great result more so than the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel. As likable as he is I still see him in that second tier of drivers.

[mattt]

I personally would put it like this


Alonso Hamilton
Vettel (not been in a properly slow car)
Button


The rest

[spider]

On out-and-out dry pace - Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso at the moment.

Button for me is like the perfect Number 2 - not fast enough in the dry to match Hamilton (2-3 tenths off), but he's a safer pair of hands and brings home meaty points - he's more reliable than Webber and Massa, so I'd easily pick him over those two any time - and he's a lot more marketable too.

In slippery conditions he's perhaps the best out there.

Sebastian has had a **** car at one point - the T.R at the start of 2008 was pretty average, and I seem to remember him trumping Bourdais (who admittedly was a let-down in F1) and having some great mid-pack races then...before their meteoric rise towards the seasons-end.

Di Resta for me looks the real-deal, I imagine one more season with F.I then it's Mercedes GP for him!

I'd say Button and Rosberg are a good comparison, but in the latters case, I'd question his overall ability as he's not too hot in the wet/slippery conditions.

So, for me:

Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel are above the rest - clearly by a good 2 tenths I'd say.

Button, Rosberg, Di Resta (potentially) next up

Webber (kinda 3rd-tier, almost 2nd...)

Kobayashi, Rubens, Perez (potentially), Petrov, Heidfeld, Massa, Schumacher, Sutil, Glock, Heikki - all below that tier

Then, well, the rest...and I don't include Ricciardo in that, as no idea how he'll pan-out

[HughGJohnson]

Button may not be as outright quick as the 'top three', however he is great at managing his tires and strategy. We've seen him be more aggressive lately in overtaking as well. I think when you consider the all around package Button is one of the best. Vettel, to me, seems like a one trick pony. In fairness dominating from pole is quite a useful skill. So they are just about polar opposites.

Alonso and Hamilton are both well-rounded. I believe they are the best and very close to each other in skill. Hamilton is more mistake prone, but in his rookie season he finished dead even in points with Alonso in the same car. So I would say in general the risks he takes are worth it. Of course, if he could eliminate over-aggression he’d be better off. But, I feel his aggressive style serves him well, all things considered. In Hungary he had a spin, two extra stops and a drive-through and still finished fourth, only 48 seconds behind Button, and ahead of Webber—after a 3-wide pass he made look very routine.

As far as Webber's concerned; I am biased (I don't like him) but I think I think I can objectively say he's nowhere near the top 3. If you take as much away from Webber as Razzzor does from Button, Webber would be running for one of the back markers already or in Nascar. He is routinely way slower than Vettel and gets beat by other drivers when Vettel dominates. Not to mention his horrendous starts... I would love to see Kobayashi or Kubica in that car. But since Red Bull are now into team orders, they may want to keep him around like Ferrari have kept Massa.

[Kempi]

Originally Posted by mattt

I personally would put it like this


Alonso Hamilton
Vettel (not been in a properly slow car)
Button


The rest

If you list Vettel as not having been in a properly slow car, you need to do so even more for Hamilton.

Alonso imho is a bit on top of Hamilton and Vettel still. Vettel has more potential than Hamilton to climb on the same step as Alonso since he seems to have the right mindset for that. Hamilton has a bit too much tendency to overreact to situations and make errors in judgement.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It won't be a popular view but still think there's a Top 2 (Alonso & Hamilton), then perhaps a second tier (Vettel and Button).

This is the opinion I subscribe to too. Button is an excellent driver, but needs more to be good for him to get the best out of his situation. On pure talent, Hamilton and Alonso are ahead, but this is not everyone's criterion in this thread, and fair enough.

Originally Posted by Kempi

Hamilton has a bit too much tendency to overreact to situations and make errors in judgement.

He does, but it is the focus on the world championship that makes people think this matters to the extent they do. Hamilton is a Grand Prix driver, aiming to win the race, a bit win or bust and, I don't know, for me, because he's not reckless but inspired with occasional errors, that does it for me.

McLaren really do have the best pairing, I think. We can talk about split strategies, but McLaren almost have a split approach to their drivers. One or the other will get the job done very often.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Kempi

If you list Vettel as not having been in a properly slow car, you need to do so even more for Hamilton.
...

2009 Mclaren

[Bononi]

I would say Vettel, Teflonso and Hamilton tops... with Button close behind.

[mac]

Originally Posted by HughGJohnson

As far as Webber's concerned; I am biased (I don't like him) but I think I think I can objectively say he's nowhere near the top 3. If you take as much away from Webber as Razzzor does from Button, Webber would be running for one of the back markers already or in Nascar. He is routinely way slower than Vettel and gets beat by other drivers when Vettel dominates. Not to mention his horrendous starts...[/FONT][/COLOR]

Objective?

"Routinely way slower than Vettel"? He had pole position in two of the last three GPs, finished ahead of him in Germany and at Silverstone he could not have been more all over Seb's rear if he was Boy George...

Sure, his starts aren't great but he usually makes up for them during the race... And as ever with Red Bull, how could you ever know how much KERS he has to play with at any individual start!?

[HughGJohnson]

Originally Posted by mac

Objective?

"Routinely way slower than Vettel"? He had pole position in two of the last three GPs, finished ahead of him in Germany and at Silverstone he could not have been more all over Seb's rear if he was Boy George...

Sure, his starts aren't great but he usually makes up for them during the race... And as ever with Red Bull, how could you ever know how much KERS he has to play with at any individual start!?

Yes, routinely, not always. He would never have been near Vettel at Silverstone if not for that interminible stop Vettel had. He usually stops the bleeding after a bad start, he rarely makes up for it. His two poles have produced a best finish of 3rd, I believe.

As I said, I don't really like the guy. And as opposed to Schumacher (of old, at least) I don't rate him very highly as a F1 driver. I honestly don't see how anyone rates him anywhere near the top drivers.