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Old 5 Nov 2009, 10:57 (Ref:2576266)   #1
old man
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Sports GT Racing and the Environment

Back in spring of 2007 we had an amusing canter through thoughts about Global Warming and the idea that racing should be seen to care by changing the cars that we race before change was forced upon us. The discussion settled on bio fuels and the production of these with the effects on food production etc but we never got into discussing the actual sizes of the engines and changes to the cars in other ways.

In 2008 the oil price peaked at £147 bbl and whilst that was not sustained it is now floating between $70 and $80 and the car manufacturers are producing hybrids which seem to be the way forward. F1 has lost its appeal to manufacturers and development and marketing budgets are probably more likely to be directed at showcasing the new technology. The world needs cars, both to get about and to provide employment.

Some series, ALMS for one, have introduced new classes for smaller cars or hybrid rules and the relevance of racing overall, given the economic climate may be questioned.

My question here is really the same as in 2007, should racing lead or follow this trend?
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Old 5 Nov 2009, 13:10 (Ref:2576364)   #2
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It is up to the series to market the racing as "green". But in my mind racing should naturally lead the "green racing" initiative because that is what the market desires from auto manufacturers. Sports car racing is where the appropriate technologies are developed, perfected and made practical, thus sports car racing should lead the trend.

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Old 5 Nov 2009, 13:27 (Ref:2576373)   #3
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Endurance race will always have some interest in green issues, a balance is always required betweeen fuel consumption and speed, over the years the cars have both increased power with no decrease in fuel consumption and also reduced consumption without reducing power.

Each time a car needs to stop for fuel in a 24 hour race is dead time so it is always in the interest of the teams to reduce the number of stops and therefore by definition increase the distance travelled on a single tank of fuel.

It would be interesting if anyone has the average miles per gallon of the past winners of Le mans to see what sort of progress has been made in fuel consumption over the years.
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Old 5 Nov 2009, 16:06 (Ref:2576443)   #4
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Leaving aside the politics of 'green issues'...

..those running sportscar racing, especially the various Le Mans Series' across the globe, are doing an excellent job in reflecting the current mood.

In sportscar racing there is greater opportunity to 'do things differently' - especially in LMP - which to my mind is part of the attraction and continues the historical precedent of such cars as Rover-BRM, Howmet and various other over the years.
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Old 6 Nov 2009, 13:44 (Ref:2577001)   #5
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Not forgetting the BIG recent developements in diesels! I have posted here, under the noise reduction debate I think, about there being a 'renewable' race before long. Be it solar, or fuel cell, or something way out of left field.
I can see it coming.
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Old 7 Nov 2009, 18:29 (Ref:2577743)   #6
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Not forgetting the BIG recent developements in diesels! I have posted here, under the noise reduction debate I think, about there being a 'renewable' race before long. Be it solar, or fuel cell, or something way out of left field.
I can see it coming.
You already have a renewable racing car.

Driver makes a mistake in practice, crashes it, and it gets renewed for race day. Happens all the time.
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Old 7 Nov 2009, 18:36 (Ref:2577746)   #7
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I like everybody am all for saving the planet, I have two young children. However the amount of fuel used by spectators to attend an event far outstrips the race cars thirst.
This may seam ignorant, but I recall years ago during a fuel strike, several large sporting events were cancelled for this reason, including major horse racing etc.
I fully support the 'green movement' in other ways, race cars that become more fuel efficient, their technology can then be proven and adapted for road car use, which is really very important.
Oh, by the way, my daily driver is a Dodge Ram Hemi, does that make me bad!!
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Old 7 Nov 2009, 18:39 (Ref:2577748)   #8
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A while back (a couple of years) I read that all of the exhaust issued from all of the worlds race cars in a years worth of races, did not equal the exhaust output from the cars and trucks in the state of California in a single day. Don't know how that was arrived at, but like many things these days, it's about perception.
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Old 7 Nov 2009, 19:27 (Ref:2577767)   #9
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A while back (a couple of years) I read that all of the exhaust issued from all of the worlds race cars in a years worth of races, did not equal the exhaust output from the cars and trucks in the state of California in a single day. Don't know how that was arrived at, but like many things these days, it's about perception.
So true, unfortunatly thats the conditions that motorsport has to adapt itself to if it is to survive.
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Old 8 Nov 2009, 06:00 (Ref:2577994)   #10
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I like seeing racing be about new technology. The double overhead cam, piston engine dates back to the 1920's. Isn't it about time for something new?
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Old 8 Nov 2009, 06:41 (Ref:2578021)   #11
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I can see it coming.
Yeah , I can see it coming too .

However , when that happens , I shall stay at home and watch retro dvd's about proper sportscars .

I love my sportscar racing , but not enough to fork out a shed full of wedge to personally watch rubbish .

I appreciate what sportscars are doing to clean up the enviornment but , I do feel there are bigger issues to attend to first . For example Windscale , Selafield ..... now were talkin !!!
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Old 9 Nov 2009, 12:22 (Ref:2578865)   #12
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Those two are easy. If only people would accept radioactivity as being natural.
Don't believe me? Set a geiger counter to neutral anywhere around either site you mentioned. Then take it to Aberdeen, and watch it go nuts. Granite is radioactive.

Yet the greens insist there must be ZERO leakage from a storage facility? Daft.

I now return you to your topic.
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Old 13 Nov 2009, 21:16 (Ref:2581596)   #13
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I hope the rules are structered in away that allows for competition to drive evolution in terms of both performance and the green inititaive. An engine that produces more HP and allows a GT car to do one or 2 extra laps at LeMans would be huge advantage. That should be the carrot for teams. My one hope is that they don't regulate out the engine note from racing! In person the different sounds from Ferrari, Porsche Aston and Corvette are fantastic. The sound adds greatly to the excitement of the cars.
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 01:34 (Ref:2582136)   #14
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I hope the rules are structered in away that allows for competition to drive evolution in terms of both performance and the green inititaive. An engine that produces more HP and allows a GT car to do one or 2 extra laps at LeMans would be huge advantage. That should be the carrot for teams. My one hope is that they don't regulate out the engine note from racing! In person the different sounds from Ferrari, Porsche Aston and Corvette are fantastic. The sound adds greatly to the excitement of the cars.
Absolutely true. Those of us who're dreaming of an all electrically powered sportscar grid will be dissapointed for they'll be with very few spectators of whom most'll have big trouble staying awake.
Take the Australian Solar Challenge for instance. One won't see tenths of thousands of spectators there,simply for it's just not interesting enough to keep watching. I mean,it's probably cool to see them cars whizz by once,but to stay up 'till 4 a.m. to see them 'blast' away from Arnage corner? I think not.
That's why I'm not really worried about loosing the spectacle of the combustion engine powered racecars because to draw spectators,the organizers have to organize a spectacle,otherwise people'll simply not show up and the whole circus will grind to a halt...
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 03:11 (Ref:2582150)   #15
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That's why I'm not really worried about loosing the spectacle of the combustion engine powered racecars because to draw spectators,the organizers have to organize a spectacle,otherwise people'll simply not show up and the whole circus will grind to a halt...
Hmm. The small core of motor sport spectators who do indeed like the the technical matters and the noise seem these days few and spread far. I was at a couple of events this year that should have been quite high profile and were certainly noisy but attracted very few spectators. Maybe it a UK trait.

For spectacle - electric cars. No noise added. Market the events as being like driving around in an electric chair. The masses will turn out for that - the ones who only attend to see the crashes. Those who are not part of the core of racing fans.

No added noise would be good - the punters could then be persuaded that they could hear (and smell) the electrifying results of a crash. Circuit video could broadcast all the action to their iPhones whilst they are involved with other forms of entertainment. After all someone standing at the side of a track watching racing is not actively spending cash. They are a lsot marketing opportunity. Much better to broaden the experience and make a more complete 'day out'. They can pop out to watch things 'live' when they feel the need.
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 04:56 (Ref:2582162)   #16
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The spectators at the Australian Solar challenge is not exactly a great example GT4.
People are interested, butit's over 3000km and the total enroute population (ie not including Darwin and Adelaide) would probably not exceed 50,000.
A couple of years back I was in a place called Elliot in the NT (pop 64) and there were around 2000 people there to watch. Same sort of crowd at Daly Waters I'm told. With them all driving Landcruisers or Patrols they are not your typical eco green group either.
I think there is a tendency to underestimate how interested people are in something that is technically advanced and different. Or is that just us Aussies?
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 22:12 (Ref:2582481)   #17
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'I think there is a tendency to underestimate how interested people are in something that is technically advanced and different.'

First off,electric engines aren't really technically advanced and second,yes these kind of races are different but this'll only keep the interest of spectators for a short while. It's the spectacle one experiences that make people get enthousiastic and tell advertising stories about what they whitnessed.

I dare to make the statement that when the entire grid of a race excists out of near quiet cars,attendence numbers will dwindle to the point of what I've seen at Zandvoort when the Seat diesel cup started. There,most everybody went to the tracks pub or took of home.
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Old 16 Nov 2009, 09:47 (Ref:2582677)   #18
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The first steps will be to see how the old and new compare in direct competition and if a hybrid can gain time by getting in more laps between pit stops it will also put out a message to the spectators. If manufacturers see a way of demonstrating their technology they will support and motor racing will be seen to have a purpose.
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Old 16 Nov 2009, 11:05 (Ref:2582712)   #19
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No one knows which way motor racing will go but everyone will have an opinion, The noise is a major feature of motor racing and so is desire to see cars go as fast as possible, however in order to get ordinary people to pay to watch you need to give them what they want and not what someone else tells you everyone they want. Far to often the direction taken on the advice of so called experts has resulted in boring unexpiring races which results in falling spectator numbers, these fans will quickly find something else to watch and are not easily to get back.

However I can also see to reasons for trying something new and all sports must develope, the inclusion of diesels at Le Mans was not greeted with joy but they have proved up to the job and as long as not all the cars are that quiet the atmosphere at the race has not been that badly effected, however if all the cars were that quiet I doubt sportscar racing would be in the healthy state it is in today.
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Old 16 Nov 2009, 12:21 (Ref:2582767)   #20
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Is it correct to say that form follows function as it relates to sound?

A high revving flat crank engine has a unique sound, as does the low rumble of a corvette v-8. The Audi diesel is unique as well - and I wanted to see and hear it in person. I just hope that they don't try to regulate sound out of the sport. Like any sport, television never does justice when it comes to sound. Watch Tiger Woods hit a gold ball in person and it certainly sounds different that on TV. Same for me in motor sports. At a F1 race, not only was I amazed by the high rev v-10, I could hear the sputtering of traction control - something I didn't notice on TV. Sound is an important part of motor sports. I dare say the unique sound of a Harley Davidson bike is one of it's major marketing attributes.
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Old 16 Nov 2009, 12:46 (Ref:2582783)   #21
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The ability to hear if something is wrong will always be one of the things that make attending a race better than TV converage, I remember the year of the Toyota at Le mans so vividly, it seemed to be unstopable and then it came pat us at arnarge limping pitifully and making a noise that to me sounded like the cries of a wounded animal. All of those people standing between indianapollis and arnarge knew the toyota dream was over, long before the Radio or TV had reported anything. After 23 hours of listening to the cars going past you any changes in engine note or exaust are quickly picked up long before changes in lap times are noticed.
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Old 17 Nov 2009, 10:38 (Ref:2583427)   #22
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The views noted above are those of expert fans who have been to lots of races and are indeed very important but IMO the general public's interest is directly related to media coverage and we fail to generate that over the high octane coverage that F1 gets.

TV coverage of races has to be bought these days and if racing at big sports/GT events could generate press and TV coverage because of its green credentials this would help. Would I still go a quiet race meeting? Yes I think I would because of the speed and technical interest. Would Joe Public.......well I just don't know
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Old 18 Nov 2009, 11:34 (Ref:2584079)   #23
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And interesting thing I see happening around me ever more,is the fact that people are starting to use events like car races,bike races and open days of airforces,to show their aversion against the entire CO2 hoax which is being shoved down their throaths.
The 'generall public' is getting ever smarter and starts to realise that they(and especially their wallets) are being had by governments who'll say anything to make them pay more taxes..

And let's be honest here,one does not go and observe for instance a C6-R on full throttle with the thought of "Oh beautifull peace of advanced technology,thou areth our lighting path in future clean transport"....
No,one goes to see these machines to feel the tingling down the spine when it roars by,allmost scaring you of the fence!
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Old 18 Nov 2009, 14:39 (Ref:2584246)   #24
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I shall sum it up quickly and easily.

People go to Race Meetings to be entertained, to see Fast, Loud, Spectacular racing car's battling it out on a race track. Not to see the next generation of moss, humus powered electro-diesel-hybrid hum silently around, and dont say im wrong, no-one wants to see a bunch of silent dull race cars hum around a track, i know i wouldnt want to.
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Old 18 Nov 2009, 15:35 (Ref:2584285)   #25
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What we need is a way of having loud spectacular engines without the CO2....

Hello Mr Algae: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
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