[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[S griffin]

I think it’s touch and go whether it will happen, but I also think it would be great for the sport if it did

[Deleted]

Aston Martin are horrible whiners for bop to aid them to victory + shoestring budget cheapness, no thanks (unless they play seriously and ACO doesn't give up to lazy lobbying, just as with the DPi OEMs)

I mean yes their branded Lolas were great especially with that orgasmic engine sound, but had they been artificially performance balanced to the actual level of Audi and Pug it would've been disgrace

[TF110]

Originally Posted by RedSquirrel

But GTE budgets are less than €15 million...This is a manufacturer that supposedly also wants to build Formula 1 engines in 2021 yet they aren't willing to spend a reasonable amount of money to race in the top class at Le Mans, cars that are as fast as Indycars. I wish the automotive media would stop publishing rubbish like this.

I don't know what's untruthful about the article. They only said they'd be interested in joining if the budget isn't that high and the cars have stylized features. I think a lot of manufacturers would.

[RedSquirrel]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't know what's untruthful about the article. They only said they'd be interested in joining if the budget isn't that high and the cars have stylized features. I think a lot of manufacturers would.

There's absolutely no chance that the budgets will be that small though. I think even DPi is upwards of €10 million, and that's without globetrotting or Le Mans.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by RedSquirrel

There's absolutely no chance that the budgets will be that small though. I think even DPi is upwards of €10 million, and that's without globetrotting or Le Mans.

I think Aston can spare 25 million to do a GTP program if they're talking about doing an F1 engine. I doubt the F1 thing anyway so they'll probably stay as a sponsor or rebadge Force India or something and use Mercedes engines like their road cars. That's my opinion at least.

[Deleted]

I wonder how much was the AMR budget for 3x Lola in 2009, Le Mans + LMS season... if that's the pinnacle of their resource spending capability... I doubt it's that much.

Back then they also hadn't yet installed the mentality of "we expect/trust the organizing body to enable us to be winners", that didn't come until few years later

[TF110]

Doesn't the WEC pay for the shipping? And if the super season style continues in the future, there's prety big gaps between races so getting your cars to places doesn't seem like it's a huge expense. It's not like F1 where you travel to different continents every two weeks. And maybe if they actually do an F1 engine, it could do double duty in a GTP/LMP1.

[Akrapovic]

WEC does the shipping. It's surface shipping this year, not air.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

WEC does the shipping. It's surface shipping this year, not air.

That's what I thought. Shouldn't matter because for the non-European races, the gap between them is big enough for that to work.

[TF110]

Jean Todt looking for 5 or more manufacturers to be involved in lmp1 or it's equivalent in the future. I would like to see that, but find it a little unbelievable.

[XtC24]

Looks like he would prefer the cars not to be called LMP1 and wants to close the performance of all classes which means to slow LMPs down. I know it’s been around for months but It worries me, because it suggests some radical change and I want prototypes.
I don’t want pumped up GTs with some prototype elements and styling cues.
It is possible to make some styling and make bigger logos of the cars on the front, but leave them alone to be prototypes. The GTEs are the ones that the manufacturers can race on Sunday and sell on Monday and it’s very good so.

If it has to be called like GTP let it look like Toyota GT one.

Maybe the best example of the difference are these two:

These below looks like some GT/Prototype hybrid and I don't like the top class to be like this altough I know some people liked this car: Porsche GT1 - 97


And this one looks lot better, like a proper prototype, still clearly a Porsche. This is the right way to go for me Porsche GT1 from '98

[chernaudi]

I believe that we'll see a LMP1/DPI convergence before Todt gets his way. The ACO still run the show on writing the rules for the WEC.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by XtC24

Looks like he would prefer the cars not to be called LMP1 and wants to close the performance of all classes which means to slow LMPs down. I know it’s been around for months but It worries me, because it suggests some radical change and I want prototypes.
I don’t want pumped up GTs with some prototype elements and styling cues.
It is possible to make some styling and make bigger logos of the cars on the front, but leave them alone to be prototypes. The GTEs are the ones that the manufacturers can race on Sunday and sell on Monday and it’s very good so.

If it has to be called like GTP let it look like Toyota GT one.

Maybe the best example of the difference are these two:

These below looks like some GT/Prototype hybrid and I don't like the top class to be like this altough I know some people liked this car: Porsche GT1 - 97


And this one looks lot better, like a proper prototype, still clearly a Porsche. This is the right way to go for me Porsche GT1 from '98

I agree. The 98 Porsche 911 GT1 and the Mercedes CLR. They look like a Porsche and a Mercedes, but you can clearly see they're prototypes. I don't believe they will slow lmp1 or GTP whatever it's called. But I think there's some space for lmp2 and GTE to be sped up.

[S griffin]

Those Porsches and Mercs were proper sportscars, good mix of proto/GT. But whatever happens next to LMPs and GTs, who knows? That’s up to the FIA/ACO

[XtC24]

This is exactly the thing, that I do not want a gt/proto mix like Porsche '97, just at least proto like Porsche '98 +fin in so far that no one calls it other than LMP and the class stays LMP and under 3:20 at LM. Just something like slight similarity of lights to the production cars.

Dont wanna the letters "GT" at all in it.

[Tique]

Originally Posted by TF110

Jean Todt looking for 5 or more manufacturers to be involved in lmp1 or it's equivalent in the future. I would like to see that, but find it a little unbelievable.

Not so long ago, Jean Todt was speaking about using the F1 power unit in endurance. Also unbelievable with the cost associted to it I think. In the press article Jean Todt also said that FIA will look on his interest first and then we will see about the IMSA. Hopefully, i will not happen this way and the ACO and IMSA will do somthing cleaver for the good of the endurance.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Tique

Not so long ago, Jean Todt was speaking about using the F1 power unit in endurance. Also unbelievable with the cost associted to it I think. In the press article Jean Todt also said that FIA will look on his interest first and then we will see about the IMSA. Hopefully, i will not happen this way and the ACO and IMSA will do somthing cleaver for the good of the endurance.

I read that as they won't stretch too far to appease IMSA and will stay the course of what the ACO visions as the top class. But they'll still try to make concessions to have DPi equal or the same as GTP or whatever it's called.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Tique

Not so long ago, Jean Todt was speaking about using the F1 power unit in endurance. Also unbelievable with the cost associted to it I think.

The F1 power unit would have to be modified a fair bit to work in endurance racing, and the changes might actually bring the price DOWN. The gas engine wouldn't likely need to produce as much power and thus wouldn't be as heavily stressed and likely would cost less to run(though no less to purchase), and the hybrid system would have to be a lot more robust, which could bring the costs up or down.

Using the F1 PUs doesn't sound like a good idea to me, but the matter's not as simple as "it's almost too expensive for F1 so it's guaranteed to be too expensive for endurance racing."

I WOULD be interested to see someone design a serious LMP1-spec hybrid engine based on the an F1 power unit just to see how much it really would cost, though. When Group C was killed off by adopting F1 engine regulations, the F1-based motors were actually detuned from F1 spec to make them last, and as a result were far cheaper than they were in F1. While more expensive than previous specs, it wasn't necessarily unsustainable - it's easy to forget that the aero revamp drove up the cost to run Group C at least as much as the new engine regs did. The situation LMP1 is in right now seems very similar - it's not just the engines, it's the cars.

[S griffin]

Really there is no reason why the F1 power unit shouldn't be used in sportscar racing, especially as costs could be cut. There's plenty of logic to it, but it depends what series it is used in. I wouldn't be surprised if it used in Europe.

Really would it work though on a LMP1? Really I think Group C was getting too expensive anyway. Really all good things come to an end. But who knows where LMP1 will be in 12 months time?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Really there is no reason why the F1 power unit shouldn't be used in sportscar racing, especially as costs could be cut. There's plenty of logic to it, but it depends what series it is used in. I wouldn't be surprised if it used in Europe.

Really would it work though on a LMP1? Really I think Group C was getting too expensive anyway. Really all good things come to an end. But who knows where LMP1 will be in 12 months time?

There's plenty of reason not to use them in sportscar racing. They're already expensive for what they are. They'd realistically only work for manufacturers because the resources required to run them are massive.

You ask if it'd work in an LMP1, but it's not like it's an option for anything else. You can't put those in an LMP2. Well, you could but it'd destroy the class.

[S griffin]

I’m sure they’d find a reason. Although to be fair the current power units aren’t really necessary in F1. LMP1 is probably the fine the way it is and so is LMP2

[TF110]

By the time the new rules for lmp1 are here so will new rules on f1 engines. No more ers-h and supposedly more kers. If they do keep it cheap then it might be a good customer engine for lmp1.

[Akrapovic]

It all sounds great but "cheap" for F1 is still astronomical. The target for the new F1 engine cost is around $12m - $14m to sell to a privateer. The engine alone is several times more expensive than the entire budget for a privateer LMP1 team.

Toto Wolff: "On the other side we have found an agreement with the FIA to reduce the prices to all engine customers over the next years to levels that are the lowest ever in F1.

"I think if you get this kind of engine at prices like $12-14m, which is what we're trying to achieve, I have no understanding for somebody that claims the engines are too expensive."

He's got a pretty short memory if he thinks that's the cheapest ever price but shows how crazy and insular F1 is.

[S griffin]

Really costs need to be down to a sensible level. It’s too much to sell to another team in F1. I’m not sure LMP1 has the megabunks. Really Toto should realise 12 million is still too much for most people, but not him obviously. It is way too much

[EffectiveSprinkles]

When Wolff says 12-14 million you can guarantee it will be double that at least.


I'm hoping for Honda to pull the trigger and leave F1.