A Question

[adsyj]

Hi

This is my first post although I have been a lurker for a while. I am not a traditional Motor Sport fan and have no background in the sport, but was lucky enough to be invited to a couple of Corporate suites at Bathurst and Indy and loved it and have been an avid follower since.

As I said I have no technical knowledge but am in awe of the machines and the racing. That being said I wonder if someone would be kind enough to answer a question for me.

Would it not make for a better race if Pit Stops were not allowed during a safety car period. It seems to me (and I am happy to be corrected) that a major part of the race is strategy and managing fuel and tyres. If pit lane was closed during a safety car and teams raced according to a plan is it not possible that that some of the slower cars could gain advantage via smart strategies.

I hope that is not to much of a dumb question go easy on me if it is.

Thanks

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by adsyj

Hi

This is my first post although I have been a lurker for a while. I am not a traditional Motor Sport fan and have no background in the sport, but was lucky enough to be invited to a couple of Corporate suites at Bathurst and Indy and loved it and have been an avid follower since.

As I said I have no technical knowledge but am in awe of the machines and the racing. That being said I wonder if someone would be kind enough to answer a question for me.

Would it not make for a better race if Pit Stops were not allowed during a safety car period. It seems to me (and I am happy to be corrected) that a major part of the race is strategy and managing fuel and tyres. If pit lane was closed during a safety car and teams raced according to a plan is it not possible that that some of the slower cars could gain advantage via smart strategies.

I hope that is not to much of a dumb question go easy on me if it is.

Thanks

I've often thought the same thing, I guess it's a safety issue though as sometimes you might be running out of fuel or have a serious mechanical problem and need to get in. Might be quite hard to police who was a genuine emergency and who was just being opportunistic though.

[peckstar]

Let me explain the key problem (forgeting safety issues on why the safety car is out there)

Car 1 and Car 2 are half a lap ahead of the field one behind the other on a similar strategy.

Car 1 pits and loses half a lap, but remains 2nd on the track.
The safety car comes out and Car 1 can now close up onto the back of Car 2 (excluding any lapped cars)
your suggestions means Car 2 cannot pit under the safety car.
when the safety car go back in car 2 pits and loses half a lap, not only that but all the cars that were half a lap behind are now in front of it.

So car 2 copes a massive penalty, we dont really want that

With the current way Cars 1 and 2 still remain at the front and neither car is penalised other than the cars behind catching up

[david5]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Let me explain the key problem (forgeting safety issues on why the safety car is out there)

Car 1 and Car 2 are half a lap ahead of the field one behind the other on a similar strategy.

Car 1 pits and loses half a lap, but remains 2nd on the track.
The safety car comes out and Car 1 can now close up onto the back of Car 2 (excluding any lapped cars)
your suggestions means Car 2 cannot pit under the safety car.
when the safety car go back in car 2 pits and loses half a lap, not only that but all the cars that were half a lap behind are now in front of it.

So car 2 copes a massive penalty, we dont really want that

With the current way Cars 1 and 2 still remain at the front and neither car is penalised other than the cars behind catching up

How can car 1 pit if the pits are closed ?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by david5

How can car 1 pit if the pits are closed ?

I didnt say that.

Car 1 pits and loses half a lap, but remains 2nd on the track.

then the safety car happens,

at a place like bathurst that could be less than a lap later

[adsyj]

Thanks for that peckstar.

I understand what you are saying, but given that every car has to pit at some stage would it not even out over the course of a race.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by adsyj

Thanks for that peckstar.

I understand what you are saying, but given that every car has to pit at some stage would it not even out over the course of a race.

Not in a typical v8 race. or even if the safety car happened late in the race

at the moment they work on two key strategies (usally explained at the start of the telecast)

pit early say for a half tank or pit late for a half tank

closing the pits woudl benefit the car who pitted early as they would only have one more stop, as opposed to the guy who pitted late who would have two.

as a result all drivers would move to the pit early strategy, thus reducing strategy in a race

Last years bathurst saw GT pit just before a SC, lowndes pitted during it (same lap) Closing the pits would have put craig half a lap down thus robbing us of the great finish we had

[adsyj]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Cheers

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by adsyj

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Cheers

It works in NASCAR, but typically in NASCAR it is easier to pass, plus they then open the pit anyway under Safety car.

But definately closing the pit in a v8 situation would reduce strategy as drivers would tend to stick to the same strategy

[Downoz]

Why not fill them with fuel, put a set tyres on, start the race and then say first to the checkers wins. THe race would have to be of a distance that neither fuel or tyres would make the distance. Just let em go and not organise when and if pit stops should be taken. Some times the safety car would work against you, sometimes it would work with you. Just let them race.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Downoz

Why not fill them with fuel, put a set tyres on, start the race and then say first to the checkers wins. THe race would have to be of a distance that neither fuel or tyres would make the distance. Just let em go and not organise when and if pit stops should be taken. Some times the safety car would work against you, sometimes it would work with you. Just let them race.

We have that already.

But smart (actually you dont even have to be smart) people can simply work out that fuel last X laps and so they need to fill X times to make it to the end. Its simple maths

thus smart people work work out a strategy and the ones that dont come last

[david5]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I didnt say that.



then the safety car happens,

at a place like bathurst that could be less than a lap later

Sorry, misread your original post.

But sorry, hate the whole CPS rot, give them back their big tanks, fill them up & let them race, close the pits for safety cars & LET THEM RACE, I don't care about who has the clever people working out their best "window", pass on the track. The rare event that pecky describes is just bad luck, better than double stacking.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Downoz

Why not fill them with fuel, put a set tyres on, start the race and then say first to the checkers wins. THe race would have to be of a distance that neither fuel or tyres would make the distance. Just let em go and not organise when and if pit stops should be taken. Some times the safety car would work against you, sometimes it would work with you. Just let them race.

I'm 99% with you. I would go the way where at tank can just make a race distance, or maybe 50/50 on falling short on a less economical track/conditions with no yellows. This would mean drivers are faced with managing the race at some point, but when they choose to is up to them. An element of "unpredictability" right there.

Tyres would be similar as well. If there's one supplier, make it simple and provide one, harder compound, that can do the job. From there you can stop as many times as you like, it's up to you. One scenario may be, that the front runners in the good cars will try to go all the way on one set of tyres, but a car say, qualifying 6th, would go for a more aggressive strategy and pit for new tyres sometime during the race, maybe twice. Depending on what happens, that may put pressure on the leaders to keep their lead. It wouldn't happen all the time, but that's the way I'd go.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by david5

Sorry, misread your original post.

But sorry, hate the whole CPS rot, give them back their big tanks, fill them up & let them race, close the pits for safety cars & LET THEM RACE, I don't care about who has the clever people working out their best "window", pass on the track. The rare event that pecky describes is just bad luck, better than double stacking.

We havent had CPS for many years now,
Even with the bigger full tanks they would still not make the distance on Sunday

Dont you like pit stops?

That rare event happens just about every time we have a safety car

Why close the pits at all You have failed to show any reason for it

Why is it better than double stacking? Double stacking loses about 10 seconds on the track, closing the pits loses about 40 seconds, I know which one i would prefer

[krypto71]

It would be nice to see more passing on track. Maybe a bit less downforce. Part of the attraction of Nascar for me is that there are more competitive cars, and more passing on track. Even pit lane at nascar events are wider enabling a bit of a race off pit road, even with a speed limit.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by krypto71

It would be nice to see more passing on track. Maybe a bit less downforce. Part of the attraction of Nascar for me is that there are more competitive cars, and more passing on track. Even pit lane at nascar events are wider enabling a bit of a race off pit road, even with a speed limit.

Agreed, but dont we get a lot of passing on the track anyway.

I dont think we really want passes on every lap,

In recent years we have seen many races when top 3 positions have changed in the last two or three laps

But as you pointed out alot is about track construction, and we dont construct too many new tracks in Australia

[krypto71]

I was at the nascar event at Phoenix last November, and it was a great experience. One thing I found interesting was that the cars didn't seem as fast in person as they do on tv. Our V8 supercars look every bit as quick if not more, in person than on tv. I like with nascar, that a bad qualifying result does not mean your day is done. Thats what I'd like to see in our series.

[Downoz]

Well, say have a 400k race on the Sunday, if you can make it on one set of tyres, so be it and if you have to have 1 or two stops for fuel OK, but trying to alter the races by having pit stops that are not necessary, and who cares if they come in on the first lap of the last, just let them race, and get rid of the whoever it is that handles the penalties for rubbing and pushing and put someone there that is not afraid to let it get a little bit physical. You punt me off today, look out for tomorrow I punt you off. More tough racing, not the pussy footing that is going on now. Any way that is what I think. I have got more dents in my car from the woolworths car park than half the Supercars, have so far this season.


PS for some good racing give the back half of the field bridgestone tyres, that are about 1 and a bit seconds a lap quicker that the Dunlop, then let em loose.

[Woolley]

Some people have different opnions. And you know what, that's allowed. So stop being so aggressive to each other and discuss the subject. We have a new poster, so let's not put them off with the same old same old.

I've removed the offending posts.

Thank you.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Some people have different opnions. And you know what, that's allowed. So stop being so aggressive to each other and discuss the subject. We have a new poster, so let's not put them off with the same old same old.

I've removed the offending posts.

Thank you.

Well in that case i apologies to the person i offended by suggesting that because they wanted shorter races without pit stops that they should go and watch a different form of motorsport.

I apologies, even though they agreed that would rather watch a different form of motorsport.

I apologies to the new poster who asked a fair and valid question and which i replied in a fair and balanced way for possibly putting you off posting in ten tenths ever again.

I am suitable chastised.

[adsyj]

pekstar

No apology necessary. I thank you for taking the time to answer.

I enjoy reading and understand there will be different opinions I am learning a bit about the sport.

Cheers

[formerf1champ]

Anyway, I was dumb enough to be listening to The Stick Shift this morning. They were talking about problems in the pits with double stacking and what could be done about it. The first thought I had was "Why don't you have races that don't require the need to go into the pits?" Radical idea, I know.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Anyway, I was dumb enough to be listening to The Stick Shift this morning. They were talking about problems in the pits with double stacking and what could be done about it. The first thought I had was "Why don't you have races that don't require the need to go into the pits?" Radical idea, I know.

well because no one in their right mind would pay $60 for a 30 minute race.

Name one serious motorsport (4 wheel on bitumen) which doesn't have pit stops?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by peckstar

well because no one in their right mind would pay $60 for a 30 minute race.

Where are you going with this? You could charge less money. You could hold more than one race in a day, although, ideally, no more than two. Are you saying the V8 with a full tank and a hard/enough compound tyre can only last 30 minutes? That being the case, the whole comp is overrated in the first place.

Originally Posted by peckstar

Name one serious motorsport (4 wheel on bitumen) which doesn't have pit stops?

I cannot name one. Having stated that, all of motorsport has been dumbed down the last 20 years, with jibberish rules regarding tyres and mandatory pitstops. So, I could question if there's any serious motorsport anywhere.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Where are you going with this? You could charge less money. You could hold more than one race in a day, although, ideally, no more than two. Are you saying the V8 with a full tank and a hard/enough compound tyre can only last 30 minutes? That being the case, the whole comp is overrated in the first place.

I cannot name one. Having stated that, all of motorsport has been dumbed down the last 20 years, with jibberish rules regarding tyres and mandatory pitstops. So, I could question if there's any serious motorsport anywhere.

why just two races? why not ten?.

haven't you (not a personal attack, just a question to you) in fact dumbed it down by asking that they have a tyre that last for an hour even though the tyre will be well past its best and the racing will be processional and people will think that the racing is boring and so therefore not attend? We used to do that in the v8 series, but the series realised that it wasn't a good formula for racing

V8 supercars do not have mandatory pit stops, they also only have dodgy rules regarding tyres in 6 (or so) rounds. (and i agree with you on the that point, I dont think the tyre rules are working in F1 either)

you said you are going to sandown this weekend? notice the size of the crowd and notice the style of racing is more what you are requesting.

Crowds want more and motorsport at the top level is partly about giving the crowds what they are looking for in racing, otherwise the sponsors leave.