Interesting Controversy in Today's Indy Star

[Tim Northcutt]

How can this happen??

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...-owners-misled


Brian Barnhart needs to pull his head out of his butt!!!

This should NEVER happen!!!

[JagtechOhio]

As many things as Barnhart gets unfair criticism for, I'm having a real problem over this one. It smells bad so far.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

How can this happen??

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...-owners-misled


Brian Barnhart needs to pull his head out of his butt!!!

This should NEVER happen!!!

How can it happen? Remember the steering rack deal with danica on road courses cause she couldn't turn the wheel and got too tired with the system in the rules? And the nonsense with not weighing the car with driver like every other international series out there?

Not the first time. And I'm sure there have been plenty of other winks and nods over the years.

And Barnyard needed to go a long time ago IMHO.

Stupid stuff like this doesn't help credibility with anyone whether it's fans or other teams or whatever.

[Yannick]

So that means Team Penske Racing has got an active suspension?

[JagtechOhio]

I haven't found much detail yet, here's the rough sketch:

An additional stock front sway bar is attached to act as a secondary (and stiffer) front spring.

Ride height and spring rate are selected according to the circuit, and the secondary spring then act to maintain ride height when the car is heavily pitched (weight transfer to the nose under hard braking is one example).

Maintaining consistant ground effect downforce levels is critically dependant on consistant ride height. If you can keep your car more stable, the increased ground effect then enables you to use less wing than your competitors as well.

The precedent for all of this is the J Damper controversy from 2006 in F1. The method of maintaining the ride height is different , but the result is the same: it's a suspension control that improves overall vehicle aerodynamics.

Penske started using it in 2008. Ganassi proposed a system to Barnhart, and theirs was rejected. Barnhart chose not to make the Penske addition illegal, but the Ganassi boys didn't know exactly what it was that had been approved.

I think that's the beef. This is predominantly a spec series, for the stated reason of cost control. So if you approve a component for one team before the development freeze, and nobody knows what it is, they can't add anything similar unless they can prove it has been run in competition before.

You might know Penske has an unfair advantage, but you can't copy it unless you know what it was that they got approved. See what I mean?

Apparently, N/H/L had the added sway bar setup in 2009 as well. It's a real sticky situation: how much innovation do you permit, and should the technology be preserved as secret?

If you let one team devise a simple mechanical system to control ride height, what is the criteria you use to deny another team's design to achieve the same effect?

So Ganassi and his Team Manager Mike Hull feel like they are getting ripped off, and Penske's cars have shown extremely well in road course races in 2009 and 2010.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Hence Penske's resistance to a new chassis, his advantage gone.

[JagtechOhio]

A lot of this stuff is over my head, and trying to anticipate what Penkse is up to definitely qualifies.

[bjohnsonsmith]

At least we now know who Barnhard's pay master is.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

At least we now know who Barnhard's pay master is.

By an amazing coincidence, the first of the CARTisans to jump to the IRL?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ensign14

By an amazing coincidence, the first of the CARTisans to jump to the IRL?

By an amazing coincidence, took Honda with them?

[Tim Northcutt]

Penske rano Toyota power at that time.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Penske rano Toyota power at that time.

I thought he used Ilmor and then Chevrolet to begin with? Then persuaded Honda to get involved with the Ilmor designed V8.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought he used Ilmor and then Chevrolet to begin with? Then persuaded Honda to get involved with the Ilmor designed V8.

Before the engine manufacturers started defecting from CART, Helo had Aurora engine power when he won the 500 in 2001.

In 2002, he ran Chevy power, but Gil De Ferran ran Toyota power when he won in 2003...In fact, the manufacturers would let one "chosen" team take an engine and try to tweak it...Penske tried to create qualifying motors for Indy that were so good and reliable that Toyota adopted his changes to fit all of their race engines and Toyota dominated in the IRL in 2003.

Penske ran Toyota power until they left the series until 2006, IIRC.

Honda brought over Rahal, Andretti Green, and Fernandez the following year.

He had nothing to do with Honda, at least in the IRL, prior to that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Before the engine manufacturers started defecting from CART, Helo had Aurora engine power when he won the 500 in 2001.

In 2002, he ran Chevy power, but Gil De Ferran ran Toyota power when he won in 2003...In fact, the manufacturers would let one "chosen" team take an engine and try to tweak it...Penske tried to create qualifying motors for Indy that were so good and reliable that Toyota adopted his changes to fit all of their race engines and Toyota dominated in the IRL in 2003.

Penske ran Toyota power until they left the series until 2006, IIRC.

Honda brought over Rahal, Andretti Green, and Fernandez the following year.

He had nothing to do with Honda, at least in the IRL, prior to that.

Thanks for all that. I never really followed the IRL and that period in particular was always a conundrum.

[JagtechOhio]

echoes of bjohnson's comments from me too.

I did read the letter from Marlboro to Penske, instructing him to move to the IRL so that they would be represented at Indianapolis. It's on the web somewhere as part of the public disclosure of the Federal tobacco settlement, if I could find it again I would post it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

echoes of bjohnson's comments from me too.

I did read the letter from Marlboro to Penske, instructing him to move to the IRL so that they would be represented at Indianapolis. It's on the web somewhere as part of the public disclosure of the Federal tobacco settlement, if I could find it again I would post it.

Shame he didn't turn that around.

[Juarez Jed]

Im surprised that Chip and Michael (and their drivers) haven't been very vocal about this.
Perhaps they are worried they might be forced to adopt the Penske one speed gearbox that Will Power tried out at Long Beach as a package deal

[JagtechOhio]

In the never-ending stream of half truths, and the swirl of rumor that conjures up all sorts of grand illusions, here is an article posted on Racer.com that probably gets close to the truth.

In the end, this really reads as nothing more than a setup choice selected by a good driver.

http://www.racer.com/team-penske-rej...rticle/168627/

[JagtechOhio]

Same scenario, different topic: I haven't found the Marlboro letter, but this old USA Today article lays out the situation at the time.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/m...-26-penske.htm

[bjohnsonsmith]

Browser glitch - double post.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

In the never-ending stream of half truths, and the swirl of rumor that conjures up all sorts of grand illusions, here is an article posted on Racer.com that probably gets close to the truth.

In the end, this really reads as nothing more than a setup choice selected by a good driver.

http://www.racer.com/team-penske-rej...rticle/168627/

Sounds rather similar to the ride height control business regarding RBR's F1 car. After RBR's 'average' peformance at the Chinese GP itself, all's gone quiet. The same thing will happen when someone else wins the next race other than a Penske driver.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Same scenario, different topic: I haven't found the Marlboro letter, but this old USA Today article lays out the situation at the time.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/m...-26-penske.htm

I liked this quote:

"Some days it's your day, some days it isn't," Cindric said.

Or as someone else said: "Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant."