The Cause of Fernando Alonso's Crash

[Sodemo]

What do people make of the (as far as I know baseless at this time) suggestion that Alonso may have received an electric shock from the car (which caused him to go off)?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Not so, and I can only repeat what I said before; in the current circumstances, McLaren are not in control of the flow of medical information.

i think Mclaren's latest press releases bears that out. here is the original (link) followed my my edited version.


'... Fernando Alonso’s doctors...Fernando’s doctors...his doctors...Fernando’s doctors...his doctors...his doctors’ advice.'

no mention of team doctors or F1 doctors which i also find unusual.

i am probably reading what i want to in this as i have been of the opinion that the lack of coordination here really speaks to the fact that there is very little trust between the team and its star driver.

also surprising is that there are two weeks to go...'where is the sensible press release saying that they will continue to evaluate and wait until the last minute to decide?

why even make the decision two weeks out?

[bella]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

why even make the decision two weeks out?

i think that's true if it's based on physical symptoms, but as they say in the press release, there's nothing wrong with him. it's a precaution to prevent a secondary injury, and for that there's a specific timeframe that needs to be adhered to. that timeframe won't change between now and then.

someone somewhere is being responsible which is good to see.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bella

i think that's true if it's based on physical symptoms, but as they say in the press release, there's nothing wrong with him. it's a precaution to prevent a secondary injury, and for that there's a specific timeframe that needs to be adhered to. that timeframe won't change between now and then.

someone somewhere is being responsible which is good to see.

Hmm, has no-one even considered the distinct possibility that before and then most definitely after the crash that Alonso obviously worked out there is no hope for them this season and is already discussing a get out clause?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

also surprising is that there are two weeks to go...'where is the sensible press release saying that they will continue to evaluate and wait until the last minute to decide?

why even make the decision two weeks out?

I believe that current conservative medical opinion on concussion is that, in a contact sport or a sport where a repeat of the original potential cause of the concussion remains to a possibility, i.e. another crash, then a minimum of three weeks should be taken between the events.

It may well be that McLaren's and even the FIA's medical advisors had stated that they could or would leave the decision until they arrived in Melbourne prior to the race, whilst Alonso's camp felt that he would be better served by not having to fly all the way to Australia.

Both "opinions" seem to be logical, and it may also be that Alonso is mindfull of the situations that Schumacher and Bianchi find themselves in, and that is what has been behind his decision.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by bella

someone somewhere is being responsible which is good to see.

This, 100%.

From the man himself - https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/stat...51735011352576

Originally Posted by @alo_oficial

A second impact in less than 21 days "NO"

[JeremySmith]

Fernando is taking his doctors advice I see nothing strange about his decision not to race in Australia. I don't see any conspirecy here ..

McLaren have a real reserve driver in Kevin so no worries in that department ..

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What do people make of the (as far as I know baseless at this time) suggestion that Alonso may have received an electric shock from the car (which caused him to go off)?

Anything is possible I suppose. Would we be told if that were indeed the case ? I doubt it ....

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bella

i think that's true if it's based on physical symptoms, but as they say in the press release, there's nothing wrong with him. it's a precaution to prevent a secondary injury, and for that there's a specific timeframe that needs to be adhered to. that timeframe won't change between now and then.

sure but obviously he is going to see his doctors again within the next two week period. i would imagine he is being assessed multiple times a day.

ruling him out for the next race with two weeks to go, to me, raises more concerns rather than alleviates fear of repeat or aggravating injury.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I believe that current conservative medical opinion on concussion is that, in a contact sport or a sport where a repeat of the original potential cause of the concussion remains to a possibility, i.e. another crash, then a minimum of three weeks should be taken between the events.

perhaps i am clouded by what i see in the NFL and NHL where they deal with head trauma on a much more more frequent basis but two to three weeks is a long time for an athlete to sit out for just precaution. that type of break usually implies a far more serious and immediate concern.

basically my point is simply that given the history, given the quality of the 2015 car, given the conflicting press releases, and now the given length of the precautionary period suggests to me that this accident has brought to the forefront what has always been suspected of this reunion. this is a case of two parties at odds with each other.

at the very least, i dont think Alonso trusts his team with his health and that i dont think is a good situation for a driver to be in.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What do people make of the (as far as I know baseless at this time) suggestion that Alonso may have received an electric shock from the car (which caused him to go off)?

for what it is worth and given that this information did not come directly from Alonso's doctors, but Ron Dennis scientifically denied this possibility the other day. link

'There was rumours of electrocution. I can tell you when a human is electrocuted there's a particular enzyme that elevates, it stays there for 48 hours. It is a scientific fact that if a human gets electrocuted this enzyme goes up. It was completely normal for the duration [of his hospital stay]. There was categorically no sort of electrocution. There was, and we have the reference, a fan stood on the corner with his son who has communicated with us in the last few days to say it was extremely gusty in that corner. In all his previous runs Fernando was saying it's tricky because the wind is moving the car around.'

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What do people make of the (as far as I know baseless at this time) suggestion that Alonso may have received an electric shock from the car (which caused him to go off)?

As you quite rightly say, absolutely baseless.

However, to contradict that possibility, telemetry data from Alonso's car, which I believe has been shared with the FIA, shows that, after the car became destabilised whilst on the Astroturf and before it hit the wall on the opposite side of the track, Alonso manually (via the flappy-paddle) down-shifted at least once. It would be extremely unlikely that if he was electrocuted that he would either be physically capable of so doing or mentally capable of even thinking about taking that action.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As you quite rightly say, absolutely baseless.

However, to contradict that possibility, telemetry data from Alonso's car, which I believe has been shared with the FIA, shows that, after the car became destabilised whilst on the Astroturf and before it hit the wall on the opposite side of the track, Alonso manually (via the flappy-paddle) down-shifted at least once. It would be extremely unlikely that if he was electrocuted that he would either be physically capable of so doing or mentally capable of even thinking about taking that action.

Right, I was not aware of that.

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

basically my point is simply that given the history, given the quality of the 2015 car, given the conflicting press releases, and now the given length of the precautionary period suggests to me that this accident has brought to the forefront what has always been suspected of this reunion. this is a case of two parties at odds with each other.

at the very least, i dont think Alonso trusts his team with his health and that i dont think is a good situation for a driver to be in.

So basically you follow the conspiracy path?

Alonso is an F1 driver and he wants to drive - doctors who have much more insight than probably everyone on this forum say he should sit out as it's too dangerous. Instead of just accepting that people come up with wild stories.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

at the very least, i dont think Alonso trusts his team with his health and that i dont think is a good situation for a driver to be in.

What I don't think that you are taking in to consideration is the fact that, it would seem, it is undisputed that Alonso lost conciousness at the time of or immediately after the impact with the wall.

After that, he was diagnosed with concussion, and although I am not medically trained, I believe that this condition is taken far more seriously than a person simply being concussed from, let's say, whiplash.

Might it not be that this lies behind the advice that Alonso's medical team is giving him. And the McLaren statement that there was no physical or physiological damage found may well be correct; I don't believe that there is any medical test that exists that can confirm or repudiate that diagnosis. It is usually reached as an opinion by a medico based on information provided by the patient, although some clues may be gathered from some of the vital signs.

[Paradise City]

The hospital doctors came out with this stuff about warning him not to compete. Alonso didn't take the initiative on that, he's just abiding by their advice.

Will that team gell as the season proceeds apace? Only time will tell.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

What I don't think that you are taking in to consideration is the fact that, it would seem, it is undisputed that Alonso lost conciousness at the time of or immediately after the impact with the wall.

From what the eye witnesses and Vettel said, and Hartstein speculated, and the smoke around the McLaren and Alonso press releases, I believe that Alonso blacked out before he hit the wall.

If he fainted or blacked out before he hit the wall, and the medics cannot finger exactly why, then you would expect him not to be racing in Oz.

I doubt if he suffered concussion in an accident that wasn't even severe enough to damage the suspension.

Yes speculation, if your story is full of holes and apparent inaccuracies, expect it!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by alan1302

So basically you follow the conspiracy path?

im not usually but i guess on this i am.

i havent been watching as long as many here but i do go back far enough to remember a time when all the F1 drivers had the same doctor.

so when i hear a driver has his own doctor's and we dont hear from the F1 medical staff or the teams medical staff then my mind turns to questioning why the driver is going outside the team structure.

that question repeated to me with each divergent press releases coming from Mclaren and from Alonso's manager.

i guess i like to ask questions...like where can i buy more tin foil!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i guess i like to ask questions...like where can i buy more tin foil!

Make sure you get the heavy gauge good stuff, that's all I buy and remember its your head so worth the investment!

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by wnut

If he fainted or blacked out before he hit the wall, and the medics cannot finger exactly why, then you would expect him not to be racing in Oz.

I believe this is the case also. Everyone keeps agreeing nothing appears to be wrong with Alonso, which I think is exactly the problem - they can't find a real reason for what happened out there on that day, so why risk it occurring again until they find the cause, or at least give it a few weeks to see if something similar happens again.

Similar things happen with epilepsy and other similar illnesses. I don't think this is what he has. Personally I think there is some merit in the idea of Alonso not having eaten properly, or perhaps a lack of fluids in an attempt to lower his weight, as has been suggested before by the likes of Button, Webber and Hulkenberg.

The idea of electric shock is quite silly in my opinion. To get a shock you need to provide a flow path. Sitting in the car you are extremely unlikely to be across a flow path. Jumping out of it sure, which is why the drivers have now been instructed not to slowly exit the vehicle after a sudden stop or a crash - they must jump so as not to maintain contact with the car.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wnut

Make sure you get the heavy gauge good stuff, that's all I buy and remember its your head so worth the investment!

I will have get my own doctor's advice about that first.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

From what the eye witnesses and Vettel said, and Hartstein speculated, and the smoke around the McLaren and Alonso press releases, I believe that Alonso blacked out before he hit the wall.

If he fainted or blacked out before he hit the wall, and the medics cannot finger exactly why, then you would expect him not to be racing in Oz.

I doubt if he suffered concussion in an accident that wasn't even severe enough to damage the suspension.

Yes speculation, if your story is full of holes and apparent inaccuracies, expect it!

Would that blackout have taken place prior to, during or after Alonso carried out the manual down-shift?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

What I don't think that you are taking in to consideration is the fact that, it would seem, it is undisputed that Alonso lost conciousness at the time of or immediately after the impact with the wall.

How can a fact seem to be undisputed, it's either a fact or it's not?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Would that blackout have taken place prior to, during or after Alonso carried out the manual down-shift?

So he bumped a button or paddle, why was he downshifting a crashing car?

All that would do is further unbalance the car.

Why would you downshift on the exit of a corner?

What were the brake line pressures?

What were the steering inputs?

Why don't McLaren publish the data traces?

Why did Vettel characterise it as a very peculiar accident?

Why did observers say that Alonso was slumped in the cockpit before the accident?

Why did a rumour start about Alonso being electrocuted to explain his unconsciousness before the accident?

Why is Alonso unavailable for Australia after a relatively minor impact?

Why do McLaren and Alonso have differing stories?

Too many questions too few answers.

[Paradise City]

Maybe Alonso went under Quantum Leap at the moment of the accident and the guy in the hospital bed is really Scott "Oh, boy" Bakula.

[chillibowl]

haha.