Parting of the Ways?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Nordic

You also need to take into account the world recession that was biting very hard in the early 90's. Without that the situation may have been different and we should not overlook the fact the world if facing another one now.

Bob, Its clear you hate Le Mans with as much passion as others that love it, but to say its a zit on a gnats butt concerning sales is wide of the mark, if that was the case NO ONE would bother and the race would be Gentleman drivers only without sponsors. It still ranks as a major event despite what you want to think.

Major yes, so is Indy, but not near anything such as it once was, both used to garner huge press world wide, now they are simply acknowledged semi-world wide.

It seems that your view of LeMans is firmly locked back in the sixties and seventies when it attracted the best of Detroit and Hollywood.

Both races are the last bastion of the old days, but ain't what they used to be.
Of course there was that 25/8 thing at Indy, it kinda reminds me of the invite only status of LeMans....

[Nordic]

You could say the say about most sporting events, very few attract the same level of press coverage that they did. In the UK only Football (scoccer) gets big coverage, the rest have to scratch around and pick up pieces and I would expect the same could be said world wide.

However in the world of Motorsport then LM does still command respect, which is why you get large crowds that attend and live TV coverage.

To dismiss the race and its influance is naive. I agree that many of the changes in my view have harmed the event, but at the end of the day its still going and withstood many assaults.

[Le Vieux]

This may be guesswork, but are those of us who want to keep GTs and who look back further than the 1990s are "older" members, whereas those who want prototypes only are younger?

It would be interesting to know and just for the record, as the name suggests, I'm ancient and want top keep GTs. As Bob says, Le Mans ain't what it used to be - and more's the pity.

Change isn't necessarily progress.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Major yes, so is Indy, but not near anything such as it once was, both used to garner huge press world wide, now they are simply acknowledged semi-world wide.

It seems that your view of LeMans is firmly locked back in the sixties and seventies when it attracted the best of Detroit and Hollywood.

Both races are the last bastion of the old days, but ain't what they used to be.
Of course there was that 25/8 thing at Indy, it kinda reminds me of the invite only status of LeMans....

For me, whether or not it attracts huge press is completely immaterial, as it is to the vast majority of the spectators who attend the events.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Le Vieux

This may be guesswork, but are those of us who want to keep GTs and who look back further than the 1990s are "older" members, whereas those who want prototypes only are younger?

It would be interesting to know and just for the record, as the name suggests, I'm ancient and want top keep GTs. As Bob says, Le Mans ain't what it used to be - and more's the pity.

Change isn't necessarily progress.

if being 50 makes me a younger member, you're a friend for life........

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Le Vieux

This may be guesswork, but are those of us who want to keep GTs and who look back further than the 1990s are "older" members, whereas those who want prototypes only are younger?

It would be interesting to know and just for the record, as the name suggests, I'm ancient and want top keep GTs. As Bob says, Le Mans ain't what it used to be - and more's the pity.

Change isn't necessarily progress.

I would like to think of myself as young but then I was when I first went to Le Mans in the 1985 now I am to be classed as one of those GT loving coffin dodgers!

[Mal]

Its the variety that helps creates the exiting racing. It also means you have 4 chances of a good battle in every race. Look at Sebring 2007 and the race was made by the finish in GT2, not the LMP's.

Also it levels the field sometimes - look at the first hour or so at Barcelona and there is some great footage available showing the scrap between McNish and Minnasion with McNish clearly showing what a master he is in getting through the GT traffic as everytime they hit traffic he pulls out a couple of seconds, only for the Pug to cruise back onto his tail when the track is clear.

see here

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by GT6

I would like to think of myself as young but then I was when I first went to Le Mans in the 1985 now I am to be classed as one of those GT loving coffin dodgers!

We all think we're young, but I now go to LM with people who weren't even born when I first went!

My children expect me still to be going when I need a zimmer frame, if not a wheelchair (GT version, not prototype of course......!)

[werner]

How about this proposal. It would need a bit of cooperation between ACO and Ratel though...

Le Mans has 4 classes as today, with the following numbers of cars to be entered: 15 LMP1, 15 LMP2, 10GT1 and 10GT2, and 5 wild-cards. You can qualifie yourself in if you perform good enough in ALMS, LMS and PALMS (the pacific series) for the prototype-classes, or in ALMS, FIA GT and PLMS for the GT-classes.
The ALMS and PLMS are also running 4 classes, the LMES are running only prototypes and the FIA-GT only GT's.
This way you get Europe's best GT's to compete together, and not split into LMES and FIA-GT. In Europe as it is now, there are enough LMP's to form a healthy grid at normal circuits, if not you can create the LMP3-categorie not competing for a LM-entry to fill the grid. It would lessen the danger of the lapping i saw in the video of the previous post, it was to much IMO. Maybe those LMP3's can do a 1000km-race together with GT3's from all over Europe in the week before the actual 24h-race.
Would it be possible to run a race with more than 55 cars by sharing boxes for more cars in such a lower status-race? A grid of 30 LMP3 cars and 50 GT3-cars sharing a box would be a great warmup for the fans I guess... Otherwise they may have to do something like 20LMP3 and 35GT3's.

[old man]

I was interested in having this debate with fellow enthusists and as I shall be 70 next birthday there is no doubt where I sit on that factor. GTs were there first really and my experience goes back to being a Student Apprentice at DB/ Astons when Angela Brown ran a DB3S as a road car, I think it was a coupe version, happy days.

I would hate to see GTs out of Le Mans personally and favour one GT class.

The enthusiast may not care about press coverage but IMO the entrants and drivers who try to raise funds do and that is why I get so cross with the magazines and websites that do not give equal coverage or the TV that concentrates on the lead car

Good discussion

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by old man

GT Racing on the other hand is only healthy in GT2, 3 and now 4

Wha!? Maybe so in ALMS, and to a small extent LMS, but have you seen the entry for FIA GT this year???

I'm sorry, but GT1 is in pretty good shape at the moment, and it will be even better once someone puts a definite on what the rules are going to be over the next few years.

[minimangler]

PS: "Old people love GTs" is completely b*llocks. My step dad is more a proto man, I am more a GT man- my dad appears to do both with equal measure. There is no age distinction, s'far as I can see!

[Nordic]

I think a varied, high quality grid is whats most important.

I would rather strong battles in all four classes, than a situation if it was only P1 and 2 with several really fast cars and the rest there just to make up the numbers.

[old man]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Wha!? Maybe so in ALMS, and to a small extent LMS, but have you seen the entry for FIA GT this year???

I'm sorry, but GT1 is in pretty good shape at the moment, and it will be even better once someone puts a definite on what the rules are going to be over the next few years.

OK I count 13 entries in GT1 but it is the same mix as last year, no new cars wheras we have seen new cars from both Aston and Corvette in GT 2 so they are hedging their bets and both the Porsche and Ferrari are 2008 versions, then there is the Viper and the Ford. This and the situation in the LMS and ALMS is what I base my comment on. Your point about the rules is precisely correct, we need clarification for the future

[Le Vieux]

If you're going to quote me, Minimangler, at least quote me correctly. Nowhere did I say that "old people love GTs", although many undoubtedly do.
Perhaps you'd like to re-read my original post.

I wasn't actually suggesting that such was the case, merely asking if others thought that here might be an age-based reason for our individual, varied and welcome differences of opinion. Clearly, your views differ from mine, though I'm at a loss to see why your answer has to involve the nether regions of your anatomy?

Old Man - I agree totally with your sentiments in Post 60!

[diffuser]

I don't think age alone has anything to do with wether you prefer GT's or Protos. It's propably more what went on at your first LeMans.
I'm 27, and my first LM was in 1999 (I was blissfully ignorant before that). I'd say that race was enough to get anybody hooked! So I got my first dose with amazing GTP'S and right after that came the LMP900 years with the allmighty R8. No question why I prefer Protos over GT's.
Had I been aware of the race four or five years earlier, I might be wishing for the McLaren's and other GT's to come back.
It has nothing to do with age, but with your first fix. If you got it in a GT era you're propably a GT fan and vice versa.

[minimangler]

I had my first taste of sportscar racing in the fiagt, in the era when the elms or whatever it was called was struggling, in 2002. I've since not missed a british FIA GT round, and have missed one LMS over here. I also visited Spa 24 and not LM24 last year.

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by diffuser

I don't think age alone has anything to do with wether you prefer GT's or Protos. It's propably more what went on at your first LeMans.
I'm 27, and my first LM was in 1999 (I was blissfully ignorant before that). I'd say that race was enough to get anybody hooked! So I got my first dose with amazing GTP'S and right after that came the LMP900 years with the allmighty R8. No question why I prefer Protos over GT's.
Had I been aware of the race four or five years earlier, I might be wishing for the McLaren's and other GT's to come back.
It has nothing to do with age, but with your first fix. If you got it in a GT era you're propably a GT fan and vice versa.

This is what I was trying to get across in my original post. My memories go back to the 1950s, when, arguably, all cars were GTs - they were, generally speajking, all driven to the circuit. If you're old enoguh to remember those days, then, as Diffuser says, that's where our perception of LM is fixed. In other words it is an age-related thing.

The only problem that I now have is how Aysedasi, who admits to being beyond the first flush of youth, still favours only prototypes?????

[gucom]

I love the GT's much more than the prototypes, for me the roadcar connection is an important part of endurance racing... Ofcourse I applaud it when cars like the R8 (FSI), R10 and 908 (Diesel) bring such relevance to the race as well, which is why I really do like manufacturers in LMP... but generally speaking GT cars get me much more enthusiastic, after that coupe prototypes, and after that open protos...

btw im 20

[dazbaz_99]

For me, the split classes that race in Le Mans (and the LMS/ALMS) are what makes it interesting to me. You have the individual class battles, as well as the overall win battle, the 4 races in one. Then you have the added dynamic that the different classes bring, the overtaking of the slower cars. This all adds to the challenge of winning at Le Mans or any Le Mans endurance race IMO.

I dont find watching say the FIA GT races as exciting on their own. For this reason, I think a Prototype only Le Mans would not appeal to me as much either.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by gucom

I love the GT's much more than the prototypes, for me the roadcar connection is an important part of endurance racing... Ofcourse I applaud it when cars like the R8 (FSI), R10 and 908 (Diesel) bring such relevance to the race as well, which is why I really do like manufacturers in LMP... but generally speaking GT cars get me much more enthusiastic, after that coupe prototypes, and after that open protos...

btw im 20

That is how I view it also. My first experiences were with mid to late 60's, 'The Golden Era', Can-Am (group 7) cars and Trans Am cars at Laguna Seca and later at Sears point (as a wee lad). There is something about a firebreathing car that has the profile of a car sitting on the showroom floor that I can purchase that stirs my juices! The basso resonances coming out of the exhaust of a V-8 boil the oils of the soul. Side note; scientifically proven and targeted by some muffler mfg's, Flowmaster here in the States. But I can and do appreciate the prototypes also, it just would not be he same to me if the GT's were excluded.

L.P.

[JAG]

After Group C died we had two GT classes as GT1 was meant to be equal, performance wise, to the LMP's of the day, therefore we needed a secondary production class for your regular 911's etc.

I related more to the 911 GT1 and CLK-LM than the LMP Courages and Kremer Porsche, they appeared closer in spirit to Group C.

These days those pre 99 GT1 regs have evolved into current LMP1 Coupes, GT1 cars no longer compete for overall wins.

Bar the homolgation special MC12 and S7R, all GT1/GT2 cars could compete in a single production GT class.

[dj4monie]

I like Werner's idea in theory because getting a bunch of egoistical rich Europeans to agree on anything is daunting enough...

But it would work if ego's could be set aside.

LMS - LMP1, P2 and P3(Series Only)
FIAGT - World Championship (GT2 and GT3)

You could open up GT2 by allowing higher displacement limits for min weight for example, otherwise I think its pretty good the way it is and I don't think manufactures would be wild about totally upping the cost of building one of these things on the production line.

ALMS and JLMS (yes call it the Pacific Series for pete's sake it makes sense!)

Those would be your "international" series

Give Ratel "World Championship" status. With that, he could meld his series with the ALMS and JLMS when they come to those countries. I know Fuji and Suzuka can handle the large fields and I know a few tracks in the US can handle it too or can be updated to handle it.

[werner]

So you would axe GT1 in your proposal?
That would mean LM24: LMP1, LMP2 and GT
'LM 1000" LMP3 and GT3.
That could work to. In any case the GT-regulations must be worked out quikly.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Here's what I would like to see:
An LMS with 8 races, the four classic 1000k races at Monza, Spa, Nürburgring and Silverstone with combined classes and four other races (maybe Barcelona, Norisring, Andersthorp, Dijon) as split events with 400k (shorter at Norisring) races for the protos and the GTs. No preselected spots on the grid. If the capacity of the track at the combined events + Le Mans is smaller than the number of entrants, let them duke it out in qualifying.

Well... call me insane, but this would be my utopia:

LMS (world championship) only with protoypes (those guys make me go to the moon) with four 1000km races , a 12 hours "main event" on a renewed (keep Tilke away) Nordschleife and 3 others 500km races.

plus...

Three 24 Hours Races (Le Mans, Nurburgring and Spa) with LMS and FIA-GT together, all counting to each championship.