LMS Circuits

[LeMans.pt]

Today European circuits, specially the "old" and mythical ones, had been deprived of characteristics that made them mythical, for security reasons. Mainly because of Formula One attention for those reasons, "chicanes" had been added in several places, specially in the long straights or even in fast curves, to slow maximum speed.

The accidents that happened in Monza in the last Le Mans Series weekend, made me wonder if that alterations that had been made are appropriate for other kind of car racing besides Formula 1. I recognized that my love for car racing is more "visual" or "aesthetic" than theoretical or technical and in that field i am a little (more a big) bit dumb.

In other racing disciplines, like FIA-GT and WTCC, i feel that the circuits are not very adapted for those cars, LMS included also, and that monstrous first chicane in Monza looked nothing more that a death trap to me. I really felt that without that chicane, the accidents that occurred there, including the one with Ortelli in the Oreca-Courage and the one with Lamy and Rockenfeller wouldn't happen.

But like i said, this a theme that overcomes my knowledge.... could some one take my doubts away, or confirm them?

By the way? Why not Nördscheife in LMS, if the GT cars go there for the 24 Hours of Nürburgring?

[Stefvh]

Wiyhout that chicane, Steph Ortelli would have braked at an higher speed, resultng, maybe, in a more horrific crash.

[minimangler]

Certainly, the chicanes at monza have come under much scrutiny before. in...2001 i think, a marshall was killed by a flying jordan, caused by a bottleneck at one of the chicanes, and the chicane was remodelled. I think chicanes are needed really, but maybe the monza one needs to be eased just slightly.

And the Nordschleife is a ridiculous (not always in a bad way ) place- far too dangerous for the speeds LMS cars achieve, far too bumpy, far too hard to marshall properly, not safe enough for large stretches etc.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Stefvh

Wiyhout that chicane, Steph Ortelli would have braked at an higher speed, resultng, maybe, in a more horrific crash.

But if they gone straight away to "curva grande", they would need to do such a great deceleration, correct?

[Dani Filth]

yeah .. but that would be a 300kph corner .. not really safe is it ..

[minimangler]

We can't have modern cars barrelling into curva grande! they'd approach at 320-330 kph and as dani says, go through at around 300.

Car-razy!!! But the first chicane is too tight, yes.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

But if they gone straight away to "curva grande", they would need to do such a great deceleration, correct?

But at some point they have to get rid of all that speed. They'd either come blasting into Della Roggia, or if you removed that too then they'd have to brake much harder for Lesmo I. Then Ortelli could just as well have had his accident there.
I don't think the chicane is to blame.

[minimangler]

Not the location, no. Perhaps less accidents would happen if it were reprofiled- but franky, Ortelli wouldn't have got through any corner once that corner broke at that kind of speed.

[mattcat]

Chicanes are inherently asinine no matter on which track or in what location they are placed. One by one all of the true corners are being eliminated. What is next? A chicane in the middle of Eau Rouge?

[brielga]

Originally Posted by mattcat

Chicanes are inherently asinine no matter on which track or in what location they are placed. One by one all of the true corners are being eliminated. What is next? A chicane in the middle of Eau Rouge?

There was one there already but it was removed....

[Stefvh]

yeah, there was one in '94

[mattcat]

Yes there certainly was...forgot about that. But my point was that by modifying circuits with chicanes or otherwise they are taking away what made those circuits great to begin with...

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

But at some point they have to get rid of all that speed. They'd either come blasting into Della Roggia, or if you removed that too then they'd have to brake much harder for Lesmo I. Then Ortelli could just as well have had his accident there.
I don't think the chicane is to blame.

Understood....

But, are today circuits adapted to any other sport besides F1, or the conclusion is as F1 is the fastest motorsport, if they are secure to them they are secure to anyone?

[Dani Filth]

should be ok for any other 4 wheel motorsport .. if we consider bike racing .. it will be a different story

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

should be ok for any other 4 wheel motorsport .. if we consider bike racing .. it will be a different story

In britain, Mallory and Silverstone are both different for bikes.

[canam]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

But if they gone straight away to "curva grande", they would need to do such a great deceleration, correct?

Kick out the second chicane and open out the lesmos and you could have an oval!. I think the speeds through curva grande are circa 275kph so it ain't exactly slow. Just think, Curva Grande at 330kph--stupidly dangerous. The chicane is necessary. Try to scrub off speed into the second chicane or, even worse, Lesmo 1 would not be safe compared to what is there.

[mattcat]

Originally Posted by canam

The chicane is necessary. Try to scrub off speed into the second chicane or, even worse, Lesmo 1 would not be safe compared to what is there.

And if the whole circuit were comprised solely of chicanes then we could keep the cars around a constant 80kph and virtually eliminate accidents altogether! Auto racing is an inherently dangerous sport, and from time to time there will be big accidents, no matter how "safe" a circuit may be. Let's not put a bounty out on the few exciting corners and circuits that are left out there...

[canam]

Originally Posted by mattcat

And if the whole circuit were comprised solely of chicanes then we could keep the cars around a constant 80kph and virtually eliminate accidents altogether! Auto racing is an inherently dangerous sport, and from time to time there will be big accidents, no matter how "safe" a circuit may be. Let's not put a bounty out on the few exciting corners and circuits that are left out there...

But that is not what is being suggested. I am talking about the danger of removing a single chicane (the first one) and Monza. I would hate to think what JCW's accident would have been if the entry speed had been 310-315 kph. As it was, it was circa 270 kph . We are not talking about glancing the wall NASCAR style, we are talking head-on.

[cptkablamo]

Is the problem so much with the speed/chicanes? Is there a problem with the run-off or style of barrier being used?
This is motorsport after all, they do have to go fast and take risks sometimes...

[AstonGeoff]

Surely we should be looking at this from the speed of cars?

With so much aero, fantastic brakes and great engines the cars are going faster and faster not just in a straight line but round the corners too, if they couldn't get round the corners soooo fast then maybe they would have to be slowing down earlier and so make the potential accidents not so big maybe, plus if the corner speeds are slower then the striaght line speeds would probably be slower, i know the engineers and designers always strive to go faster, but i think the ACO have hit upon a good idea of setting a level at which they think lap times are acceptable, maybe thats the way we should be looking at things at all circuits.

The problem of extending run offs or changing the circuits is that it costs millions to do so. And yes i know you can't put a price on life, but as cars have got faster it is the circuits that have been made to slow them down at vast cost!

[Purist]

You think Monza is an oval now, watch "Grand Prix"!

A fair amount of the concern here seems to be utter bull. It's not safe for LMPs to do this or that, but it's acceptable to have GTs with more horsepower than GT1s hurtling around the Nordschleife. And unless the Nurburgring is rougher than Sebring, I don't see the problem. The guardrails are close in, but with the nature of the circuit, that makes it virtually impossible for a car to hit a barrier at a steep angle while still travelling at very high speed. With all the downforce LMPs would be running, I doubt they'd exceed 355km/h, even on the Dottinger Hohe.

As for Monza, Ortelli's crash couldn't have happened if you didn't have the chicane, and thus just had narrow grass verges on either side of the tarmac. The car would have caught the guardrail before it had a chance to lift off (like what happened with Capello). The Lesmos have gravel to arrest the cars, and the barriers are close in on the inside of those corners, so without the first two chicanes, Ortelli would have speared right, but caught the guardrail before the car could have turned so far side on, skittered across the track, and been retained in the gravel trap on the outside of the turn. And with Curva Grande and that left-hand kink before the Lesmos, I doubt the cars would exceed 350km/h (they're already doing about 340km/h at four different places at Le Mans, sheesh).

[dj4monie]

I can not understand the defending of the FIA's stance on track alteration for the sake of safety.

Why alter the track, SLOW THE CARS DOWN!

Less power makes a car slower, you can only go so fast through the corners.

Do not use Ortelli's accident as booster to ractrack safety.

Something on his car BROKE, that is not a typical problem. Things break, **** happens, life goes on. I guess most of you haven't seen serious accidents, because not so long ago, an accident like his would have resulted in a fire and death.

Zendardi' accident was "right place, wrong time"

I just don't understand this stop and start nature of modern circuits. Most drivers don't like them either. If you only had so much power to deal work with, you can only go so fast.

I have been saying for years, if you wanna slow the stock cars down from 200mph around the big tracks, push them down to 5.0L V8 engines and if that isn't enough, push them down to 4.5L V6 engines.

You can use the same tactics in other series.

You use to have to be a MAN to drive these circuits back in the day and racing is a dangerous sport, its almost like trying to tell people War isn't deadly.



What's wrong with the old circuit? NOTHING, F1 turbo cars made 900-1,000hp in qualifying, that was the PROBLEM!




What's wrong with Hokenheim??? NOTHING!




F1 is what killed these great circuits and the safety crusade by Jackie Stewart.

When all along they should have reduced the output as that is what allows the cars to go as fast as they do....

[canam]

I guess if they are doing more than 340 clicks on two wheels (MotoGP in shanghai), why should we be so protective.

BTW, the Lesmo run-off is nowhere near enough at 340kph (IMO).

[chernaudi]

That's what I don't get about the ACO increasing the air restictors first to 2002 spec, then beyond that, if they're so concerned about keeping their 3:30 limit for LMP1 cars.

The Audi R10 and Peugeot 908 are atleast as aero efficient as the Audi R8 of days gone by. Just remember at Monza in '04, the pole winning R8 ran a lap of 1:34, the Pug ran a 1:31 4 years later. The Pug had 700hp, and the R8 had only 550, and less downforce(reduced span rear wing). I say give the R8 a full span rear wing, and the '02 air restictor(or for sure the '08 restrictor), and new tires, and the R8 would do at least a very low 1:32, for certian it would be on par with the Peugeot's time-and this is an almost 10 year old car! Imagine what Group C cars could do with modern technology!

I say if one is so concerned about saftey, either restict the cars(as the ACO has done in the past), or introduce new crash standards to make the cars safer. I understand modifying a track's layout to improve run off, but don't alter the racing surface itself unless there is no other recouse.

My feeling is that auto racing is inhearently dangerous, but so is just about everything else nowadays. You, me, anyone can die at anytime and we have no real control over it-the sad fact of life is that it will end and that it could end at anytime. At least race drivers do have some control over their distiny, but even that only goes so far.

It's been argued for several years that NASCAR should do away with the restictor plates at Daytona and Talledega, due to the saftey advances made in recent years. But NASCAR hasn't found a suitable solution(increase the drag to the levels of the truck series vehicles-which don't use restictor plates-and you'll still have large drafting packs and multi-car accidents, and reducing engine size will reduce thottle responce due to lack of torque. Fuel injection seems to be the only recourse, but NASCAR doens't want it right now). Some may say that the old fashioned nature of the NASCAR stock cars makes that proposition difficult. But at least the sportscars should be able to be slowed down without redesigning whole race tracks-but try telling that to the F1 guys.

[minimangler]

DJ, that Monza layout is from well before turbo era...