Licences and Overseas events

[HRSTR5]

Last year, amid much muttering on here, those of us who wanted to race overseas had to get the MSA to issue a 'visa letter' - which they were both happy and quick to do - so no complaint from me. Although I did think it a bit odd that I needed one considering my licence grade is International Historic

When I sent in my renewal papers this year I asked for a repeat 'visa' letter for 2013. No visa came with the new licence, but there are some new words on the back of the licence itself. I phoned to check with the MSA licencing team, and was told that 'they believe' the new words will be sufficient ... I'd really like them to be 100% certain!

Is everyone else happy to get on the ferry to wherever without a 'visa' letter this year, or are we going to flood the organisers of each event seeking confirmation that we can race even if we arrive without the extra piece of paper...?

James

[Brian A]

Last year - having gone to the effort of obtaining the letter from the MSA (agreed, a painless experience) - the organisers at Spa Francorchamps weren't interested in the slightest, being very happy with a simple National A licence.

Difficult to believe it would be any different this year.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by HRSTR5

Last year, amid much muttering on here, those of us who wanted to race overseas had to get the MSA to issue a 'visa letter' - which they were both happy and quick to do - so no complaint from me. Although I did think it a bit odd that I needed one considering my licence grade is International Historic

When I sent in my renewal papers this year I asked for a repeat 'visa' letter for 2013. No visa came with the new licence, but there are some new words on the back of the licence itself. I phoned to check with the MSA licencing team, and was told that 'they believe' the new words will be sufficient ... I'd really like them to be 100% certain!

Is everyone else happy to get on the ferry to wherever without a 'visa' letter this year, or are we going to flood the organisers of each event seeking confirmation that we can race even if we arrive without the extra piece of paper...?

James

here we go again...

its actually quite simple, once You understand it

even last year, if You had an international license and wanted to race in an INTERNATIONAL event (Monace Historic GP for instance), you did not need the letter

the change in regulation concerned international participants in foreign national events
you needed a permit to do this irrespective of your license type

so actually you needed know the event status, to judge if the letter was necessary

many events are national because i think the event licensing fee is cheaper for it compared to international

the MSA made things very complicated by issuing those letters on a personal basis
the Germans just devised a standard text, saying that they allowed ALL international license holders to race in foreign national events
I got mine by email, not problem

and yes, it is easyly possible to change the wording on the back of the license to include the permit
the Germans intended to do this for 2013, MSA as well probably to save cost work, a lot of it...

pls note that in theory no letter was needed even in 2012 as the actual form of the permit was never defined, it never needed to have somebodys name on it if properly worded
a general note on the MSA website would have legally been ok, or a downloadable pdf file printout

to be fair
everybody got caught out by the rule change in late 2011 at the WMC meeting when the license cards themselves were allready printed
the problem is that you cant hold the rule making meeting while the season is running but when you do you are bound to affect ongoing processes
seems to happen every year but concerns pro racers more

and a lot of nonsense was written or said by last year quickmouths who spoke without knowing the background facts
that seem to be human nature...

there is a seperate twist to this
the FIA is generally not keen to have foreigners race in local national championships and tries to make this difficult
i hate that concept and think especially within the EU this is bordering on the illegal
this is a free world and i want to be free to race where i chose and were i am wellcome

Rudolf

[HRSTR5]

Thanks for that ... I now have a full understanding of things!

[delta]

Yep I agree with you Brian,I raced all over Europe and did not get asked once.
BTW just had my HGV medical,flipping eck that was tough!!!Took the Doc an hour.Bit like an MOT he had to find sonething wrong so said my blood pressure was high.Cobblers.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by delta

BTW just had my HGV medical,flipping eck that was tough!!!Took the Doc an hour.Bit like an MOT he had to find sonething wrong so said my blood pressure was high.Cobblers.

Did he tell you to lose some weight and get fit?

[terence]

You should take up cycling and running Iain.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by delta

BTW just had my HGV medical,flipping eck that was tough!!!Took the Doc an hour.Bit like an MOT he had to find sonething wrong so said my blood pressure was high.Cobblers.

After the couple of months you've just had, any wonder??? At least you get VFM unlike the MSA one - same price, ten minutes.

Hmmm, MSA poor VFM - where have we heard that before?!?!?!?! Almost vaguely related to the thread as well!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by delta

Yep I agree with you Brian,I raced all over Europe and did not get asked once.
BTW just had my HGV medical,flipping eck that was tough!!!Took the Doc an hour.Bit like an MOT he had to find sonething wrong so said my blood pressure was high.Cobblers.

Lucky you are old enough not to have to pass the emissions test.....

[one-two]

At the risk of going off-topic, I am also a little uncertain about the current/proposed Hans device rules. Where can I find some guidance and good sense on that please? Many thanks, Robert

[terence]

As far as Germany is concerned,HANS is only a recommendation. Cant imagine it being different else where.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by one-two

At the risk of going off-topic, I am also a little uncertain about the current/proposed Hans device rules. Where can I find some guidance and good sense on that please? Many thanks, Robert

The following is snipped from the FIA Sporting Code:

"FIA-approved FHR systems must be worn by drivers and co-drivers in all International Events.
The following additional provisions apply:
The wearing of an FIA-approved FHR system is:
a) mandatory for Formula 1 cars of period G and onwards where the construction of the vehicle makes it practical to do so; recommended for other historic cars;
b) mandatory, in off-road, for all FIA European Championship events except for Autocross SuperBuggy, Buggy1600 and JuniorBuggy for which it is strongly recommended, with compatible helmets.
[c & d refer to alternative fuelled vehicles, and while there is a lot of hot air on here it doesn't yet power our cars]
For other cars in which for technical reasons it is impracticable to fit the FIA-approved FHR, it will be possible to apply to the FIA Safety Commission for a waiver"

So if you're in an International permit race you must wear them, unless your car is unsuitable (e.g. doesn't have belts fitted). I don't know which Historic races need an International licence.

If you're in an event under NEAFP - which most of us are - then it's only mandatory if mandatory under the local ASN - e.g. Irish rallyists need them. You'll need to check with e.g. German or Belgian SRs, which will be made clear to you when you complete the entry form I expect. If you're driving an F1 car of Period G onwards you have to wear one, no matter what the local ASN rules say.

Note that FHR devices (Frontal Head Restraint) can only be used with (at least) 4 point belts so if you don't have to have belts in your car you don't have to have FHR.

[Alex E]

Originally Posted by terence bower

As far as Germany is concerned,HANS is only a recommendation. Cant imagine it being different else where.

Terry, Hans is now needed for any race on the Nordschleife as I understand. Certainly they insist on it for the Youngtimers, which is basically historics.
Alex

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Alex E

Terry, Hans is now needed for any race on the Nordschleife as I understand. Certainly they insist on it for the Youngtimers, which is basically historics.
Alex

who is 'they' please? As said above it is up to the organising club...

[terence]

Originally Posted by Alex E

Terry, Hans is now needed for any race on the Nordschleife as I understand. Certainly they insist on it for the Youngtimers, which is basically historics.
Alex

Not according to the CHRSN,I have a set of regs clearly stating that HANS is recommended.

[midgetman]

Which brings no help at all to the OP who was specifically trying to clear up any such confusion.

Robert, if the race you are entering is under National permit, can I suggest you email the local governing body for guidance? Also check the SRs very carefully, and if you don't want a last minute bill maybe an early trip to Honest John's Racewear Emporium is called for.

HTH

Honest John

[JasperClan]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

here we go again...

there is a seperate twist to this
the FIA is generally not keen to have foreigners race in local national championships and tries to make this difficult
i hate that concept and think especially within the EU this is bordering on the illegal
this is a free world and i want to be free to race where i chose and were i am wellcome

Rudolf

I've heard via a German series I've competed in for a number of years that one of the effects of this is that foreigners may be able to compete but not score points in any championships. Do you know if this is the case.

Pete Richards

[terence]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Which brings no help at all to the OP who was specifically trying to clear up any such confusion.

Robert, if the race you are entering is under National permit, can I suggest you email the local governing body for guidance? Also check the SRs very carefully, and if you don't want a last minute bill maybe an early trip to Honest John's Racewear Emporium is called for.

HTH

Honest John

Apart from he now knows which series requires HANS and what doesn't.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by JasperClan

I've heard via a German series I've competed in for a number of years that one of the effects of this is that foreigners may be able to compete but not score points in any championships. Do you know if this is the case.

Pete Richards

Yes, that has been the case for a number of years but not connected with license/visa letter thing.

As is said the FIA try as much as possible to discourage foreign participation in national events and championships by making this difficult and unattractive.

Foreigner DO NOT score any points in national series, cant win them either by defintion.
In practice there are 3 scenarios:
- some series organisers are not aware of this and let you score points.
I have participated in one series that has made this mistake for a number of years, but I wont name them here as not to create any problems for them, I buy the first man a beer in paddock guesses the right one.
- others do it by the book, they just dont let You score points, end of story
- the most clever solution is to show you in the championship points table with an asterisk against your name, showing "Your" points that You "would" have scored but technically have not. A clever lawyer came up with this one
Dunno what they would do if You win the championship as technically you cant.... Must try harder...


And now a short interruption for this message
RACERS OF THE WORLD UNITE !!!!!!!! FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO RACE ABROAD IN NATIONAL EVENTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
We racers need to tell our delegates what we think about this
(Simon H, are You listening ?)

I all fairness, the idea was to a certain extent to stop foreigners from swamping other countries national championships thereby crushing the rise local young drivers. Might make sense in some junior karting championships
In practice this is nonsense, most championships wellcome any paying head, especially in historic racing

AND ANYWAY THIS IS RESTRICTIVE AND ILLIBERAL !
FIGHT IT !!

one of my pet hates.

Rudolf

[one-two]

On the Hans device issue, what I have taken away from the helpful comments so far is that they may be mandatory for international events, but are merely recommended for historic events. Where does that leave something like the Spa Classic or Six Hours meetings. Are they international or historic or both? Are there any series organisers/race administrators who might care to comment? Many thanks, Robert

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by one-two

Where does that leave something like the Spa Classic or Six Hours meetings. Are they international or historic or both? Are there any series organisers/race administrators who might care to comment? Many thanks, Robert

It leaves you here

[Alex E]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

who is 'they' please? As said above it is up to the organising club...

As I understand it is the DMSB requirement that we use HANS in these races. Appaently it is stated in their `DMSB-Handbuch Blauer Teil` which I am supposing is their `blue book`. I was told (maybe incorrectly...) that all races on the Nordschleife now require HANS.

This has been the case since last year.

As from this year from the first time we all need International licenses. No more `National A`.

Having seen the latest requirements for driving on public days at the Nurburgring you can see the general direction we are going......

I think it safeest that you check before heading for Dover......

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Apart from he now knows which series requires HANS and what doesn't.

I'm not sure he does. I'm a bit confused, and I reckon a quick email to the organising club won't come amiss. Plus a visit to Honest John

DMSB say they require HANS except on Appx K events, if I've understood it correctly. Dont know if the link works, but it's a Google translate version of the PDF rules on the DMSB web site. Amazing what you can find...

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...gCgPugmcCo3Yww

Well it works here