2006 Panoz P1

[XJR14/WSC95]

We have all heard rumors about Mazda, Porsche and Audis plans for 2006, but I have heard noting on any plans for Panoz to return to top flight sports car racing. I know that they are putting a lot of effort into the LM GT car but aside from a possible link up with Courage late last year there has been no news on the prototype front. And it’s not as though they are short of recourses with there ownership of G Force and one of the best motors going around. Is there anybody out there privileged with information on any such future involvement with the prototype class?

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by XJR14/WSC95

We have all heard rumors about Mazda, Porsche and Audis plans for 2006, but I have heard noting on any plans for Panoz to return to top flight sports car racing. I know that they are putting a lot of effort into the LM GT car but aside from a possible link up with Courage late last year there has been no news on the prototype front. And it’s not as though they are short of recourses with there ownership of G Force and one of the best motors going around. Is there anybody out there privileged with information on any such future involvement with the prototype class?

in a DSC article a while back it was said that Courage and Panoz were actively working together for a common solution using both company's resources even though an Elan engine would not be in the C60-H...

i wouldn't be suprised to have a Panoz team in 2006 consisting of both Courage and Panoz/G Force technology. i think that the situation with the LMP-1 being less and less competitive and the new regs coming on line made a situation in which going with a GT car to sell more road cars was an obvious option for the Panoz organization. hopefully they return to the LMP ranks in 2006!

[BSchneiderFan]

Perhaps the new Courage (LC70?), when and if it appears, will be designed around an Elan unit.

[FIRE]

Or perhaps a Courage with a Panoz logo (like the Lola B05/40 and MG EX264)?

[Garrett]

I have a friend that works in Panoz’s fabricating shop. I saw him last weekend at a friends wedding and asked the same question about Panoz and a P1. He replied, "There won't be a P1 Panoz anywhere in sight. The GT2 class car is their only concern." Then he shook his head no! So, I guess that sums it up! Though, I would like to see a new P1 from Panoz.

[Fab]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Perhaps the new Courage (LC70?), when and if it appears, will be designed around an Elan unit.

Yves Courage gave up for now : the engine is too big and doesn't fit the L70 (C60 Hybrid).

[gttouring]

my my my- just what will it be, an evolution of LMP07? or a mid engined design? and what input have Courage? funny thing a car that never did dominate but showed well and looked the part has become such a modern classic- our kids will be tossing it into sims just like we put the Ferrari 330 and the Group C Jag everywhere

[Tim Northcutt]

BTW....

Just a note for all of you:

I believe the Audi R8 has lost just 9 races since it began to compete....

Five of those losses were to the Panoz LMP....2 were to the Dyson Lola, one to the Bentley at Le Mans, and one to a Courage in the ELMS, because the Audi had a rare breakdown....

[lj79]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

BTW....

Just a note for all of you:

I believe the Audi R8 has lost just 9 races since it began to compete....

Five of those losses were to the Panoz LMP....2 were to the Dyson Lola, one to the Bentley at Le Mans, and one to a Courage in the ELMS, because the Audi had a rare breakdown....

a breakdown, bit of an understatement - didnt the Courage shove it off the track on the main straight at Estoril.

[BSchneiderFan]

I believe so: at first the Courage (run by Henri Pescarolo) was disqualified for the incident, handing the win to the GTS-class RML Saleen S7-R, but was then reinstated and took the win.

[courage]

fab, be carefull: the LC70 will be the new car ,fully p1 car (for 2006).
the C60 H isn't the LC70, it's the c60 chassis.
And it has been told that the LC70 could be designed to have the Panoz engine inside.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by courage

fab, be carefull: the LC70 will be the new car ,fully p1 car (for 2006).
the C60 H isn't the LC70, it's the c60 chassis.
And it has been told that the LC70 could be designed to have the Panoz engine inside.

this is true, it is reported that the C60 H will campaign the 2005 sportscar season before an all-new LMP1 is built for the 2006 season. this is largely to gain experience with the new LMP1 aero package before building and selling a completely new LMP1. the new car will likely be developed with the Elan in mind, as i believe that we will see a team of 2 cars in the ALMS in 2006.

i think the hope in the Panoz camp is for the Esperante will run well in the factory's hands this year allowing Panoz to sell a number of them to teams in the ALMS and LMES. this would allow the Panoz team to focus on the running of 2 Courage-built, Elan-powered LMP1s in 2006.

all of this is highly speculative though and we won't know the details behind this developing story until the end of 2005...

[jhansen]

Well, the subject of this thread is a "Panoz" P1 car. In my opinion a chassis designed and built by Courage, but with an Elan engine, is still not a Panoz. Regardless of any collaboration between the two groups. And a Courage chassis with an Elan unit that is run by the Panoz team is still not a Panoz IMO.

I would be surprised if we saw another Panoz prototype anytime soon. Although I would certainly welcome the chance to eat those words. If I were guessing I would say that their next effort if any would be in the GT1 class, which is a perfect venue for the ground thumping Elan unit.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Well, the subject of this thread is a "Panoz" P1 car. In my opinion a chassis designed and built by Courage, but with an Elan engine, is still not a Panoz. Regardless of any collaboration between the two groups. And a Courage chassis with an Elan unit that is run by the Panoz team is still not a Panoz IMO.

I would be surprised if we saw another Panoz prototype anytime soon. Although I would certainly welcome the chance to eat those words. If I were guessing I would say that their next effort if any would be in the GT1 class, which is a perfect venue for the ground thumping Elan unit.

well the original GTR and the subsequent LMP-1 were designed by Reynard right?

[jhansen]

Very true. Thanks for the reminder. Guess that was more of a commissioned work. So their only true in house cars are the LMP7 and the Esperante? Hopefully they can make the latter a better success.

And after some thinking, I doubt they'd go for GT1. That is quite an expensive proposition. Especially if your customer cars do not sell.

[AMT]

"well the original GTR and the subsequent LMP-1 were designed by Reynard right?"

Not 100% - see my website www.amzel.co.uk for a bit more detail. I wish Panoz would do another LMP, but the new rules make a front-engined car virtually impossible.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by AMT

I wish Panoz would do another LMP, but the new rules make a front-engined car virtually impossible.

IMO a rear-engined car is ok.

[jhansen]

I like variety myself.

AMT: Do the rules eliminate the front engine design on purpose, or is that just the way the cookie crumbles so to speak? And correct me if I'm wrong, but you did assist on the LMP1 EVO correct?

[Try Hard]

IIRC AMT worked on the LMP07? And also the Lister (besides others)

I assume that when you say the front engine config is virtually impossible, your refering to the raised front sections required by the new rules? Or is it a case that with needing to keep the weight of the engine low, a raised front can't be used?
Out of interest, would you say that a raised footbox is even more critical now? given that control of underbody airflow is required for regaining lost downforce.

Regards
Ed

[AMT]

The cookie crumbled badly for Don's front-engined vision, jhansen. It's a shame, because it's that kind of "lateral thinking" which excites many people, and it's been outlawed almost everywhere else in motor racing. "Uniformity" is the watchword, so you end up with the current F1, where the architecture and many of the individual surfaces of the cars are so buttoned down in the regs that they all look the same to most people. It's getting a bit like that with the new FIA Prototype rules.

If by EVO1 you mean the modified bonnet etc., no, that happened after I'd moved on.

[BSchneiderFan]

Were not Panoz supposedly planning a GTS/GT1 Esperante with a twin-turbo Audi/Cosworth Engineering V8?

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Were not Panoz supposedly planning a GTS/GT1 Esperante with a twin-turbo Audi/Cosworth Engineering V8?

that turned out to be merely a rumor...

[BSchneiderFan]

Alas. Off-topic, but why are there no turbocharged GT1 cars?

[AMT]

Try Hard - front-engined is impossible (or at least hopelessly uncompetitive) because of the tunnels in the rear underbody: the driver would have to be raised above those. The +50mm front underbody is not too bad, although there would be a disadvantage because, as you rightly say, it increases the aero volume you need downstream. That's more difficult to do with an engine up front.

[Félix]

I think the underbody venturis could be accomodated without much problems (it's a matter of raising things by a few millimeters); the smaller LMP01 drivers were already raised a bit (tall Terry Borcheller had to sit on the bare tub and never was comfortable enough), and you can't be too low to see over the front roll hoop... The front diffuser now pumps a lot less air than on a P900, so the exit aera is much smaller (as seen on the new Lola) and I guess the lack of space to do a proper front diffuser on a front engined car hurts less.

To me, the real obstacle is the proximity of the double roll-hoop and of its huge protective sub-section very close to the shortened rear overhang and wing. That's why AMT chopped the top on the GTR1 coupé. A cockpit bubble could be beneficial to smoothen the flow, but it would be too close to get rear downforce comparable to mid-engined cars.