Dry sump installation

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by racing59

Denis,

You should have called, I could have done you a deal on my old oil tank. It was too small for my Chevy, but was OK with a Manta 400 engine, and with a Cossie YB, so it'd do for you. It would have saved me getting it ready to go on eBay.

Rob.

What is the capacity, dimensions and fittings on the tank?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Respect!

When ya come home??

I had a fascinating talk with an old racer a while back about baffles etc ....he maintained that a well baffled sump was nearly as good as a dry sump...where did I put those sketches now

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

I had a fascinating talk with an old racer a while back about baffles etc ....he maintained that a well baffled sump was nearly as good as a dry sump...where did I put those sketches now

oh that one is a big can of worms and we've been there lots,
it seems to depend on the what engine your talking about,
even on slicks i've never had problems running a baffled wet sump on my beemers, but many say they have had major problems making a baffled sump work well enough on sticky tyres let alone slicks.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

oh that one is a big can of worms and we've been there lots,
it seems to depend on the what engine your talking about,
even on slicks i've never had problems running a baffled wet sump on my beemers, but many say they have had major problems making a baffled sump work well enough on sticky tyres let alone slicks.

That'll be me then, despite the accusump and a fully baffled and gated 8 litre sump. Although they were hard slicks, the circuit was Lydden and I have 'head oil retention' problems at the time. However I was also running with the anti roll hitting the chassis which slowed be down/caused me to hit the tyre wall.

[Al Weyman]

The Chevrolet V8 is very good if used with a properly baffled sump and in fact is not too bad even with a lash up like a mate of mine used to run. I have put the Accusump on the black car but I doubt it was really neccessary, love the pre-oiling facility though, its great to turn on the ignition and see that oil pressure climb to 50psi before you even crank the starter, kinda reassuring.

I was also running with the anti roll hitting the chassis which slowed be down/caused me to hit the tyre wall.

That will ause the car to pitch violently for sure Dennis, must have been very interesting, bit like when a certain mutual friend fitted some shockers on my car (rears) that were bottoming out, not fun ask Mark Hales!

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

That will ause the car to pitch violently for sure Dennis, must have been very interesting, bit like when a certain mutual friend fitted some shockers on my car (rears) that were bottoming out, not fun ask Mark Hales!

I have had the rear shock bottom out sensation, interesting!
Mark Hales driving, did you get you car to one of those old CCC Clinics (or which ever magazine now uses the idea)

[Al Weyman]

No this was a few years ago when we did a CCC magazine article on the ModProds, in the write up he called my car a Capri!!! I mean bad enough calling it a Ford but a Capri. A much better day was with a guy from your part of the world, Art Marcus (spelling?) he was a good scribe and tester (had respect for peoples cars) for CCC.

[Notso Swift]

I have every CCC for more than 10 years, then one day it stopped... ah well. I now get PPC, which also has Walker and has the same intention, better. It doesn't come to Australia so I subcribe.
What issue Al?

Sorry to Hijack!

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

I have had the rear shock bottom out sensation, interesting!
Mark Hales driving, did you get you car to one of those old CCC Clinics (or which ever magazine now uses the idea)

Mark Hales drove the car for a CCC Toyo Tyres Modified Production Saloon group winners test.

Back the front anti roll bar bottoming out was probably the least of the cars problems. When the rear coil springs weren't going coil bound the rear arms were hitting the chassis or the axles was hitting the exhaust which then hit the body.

Made for 'interesting' driving though!

Oh, and the two upper rear links had ripped the welded tube out of the body because I had rose jointed the rear axle without realising the implications on Toyota's rubbish design.

Funny, he said something felt 'wrong' at the rear!

Also if the car had been dry sumped then perhaps he woudn't have run a bearing!

[Al Weyman]

I have a copy in the shop I will try to remember to look on Monday this was at Goodwood before Dennis's test. I have just been reading a copy of Track & Race Car magazine, given me as a freebie when I went out with them at Brands earlier in the year, not a bad read a bit CCC like including the logo.

Marcus Pye also did a group track test for Autosport unfortunately my car was not up and running for that one but I got to drive a few other competitors cars including Roger Ebdon's very fast and agile Fiesta.

[R59]

A bit like the test that Fast Car did some years back with a couple of Nova's (before their days of shiny wheels and sub-woofers). A certain Mr Goodwin doing three laps in each one for comparison at Mallory, then writing his notes.
He did 3 in the stock hatch, 3 in the hot hatch, then about 10 in mine. I had to hang an "IN" board out for him!!! He found the brakes a little odd. R-clip missing on pin in brake linkage... making it not really connected to the master cylinder... oooo errrr missus!.

Back to the matter at hand. Dry sump - Denis my tank is:
This tall, about that round, and holds around that many litres (I'll have to measure it for accuracy, but it's about 8" diameter, probably 15" tall. I would say that it holds at least 5L of oil in normal running.
Mountings - flat plate on the bottom, for 3 holes (square with one corner taken off). Fittings - one out, two return, two breather.

PACE used to sell them like it.

Rob.

[aremfg]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Do you need an oil catch tank on a dry sump installation?

I am coming more from the scrutineering side of things than any functional requirement?

Thanks.

Hi, We always vent the dry sump tank to a vent can, which has a KN filter on top, to allow pressure out, and better yet, filtered air in when the dry sump is creating a vacuum. Gary www.drysump.com

[GORDON STREETER]

If its allowed a dry sump system will always (if fitted correctly ) be the better option for a reliable engine. If they are not overfilled they shouldn't put any oil in the catch tank as long as the engine isn't clapped out. Although they will sap a little more power the rewards far outweigh the wet sump system, as long as they are well thought out and not overcomplicated with long runs of pipes the wrong sizes, and the oil is warmed up before racing they are the better option. If possible always fit the tank as near to the engine as you can and don't forget they don't have to be huge and hold loads of oil .
Although I spun on my own oil on the last lap at Snett the other week ( when I was in the lead) it was a Ford 2 pence gasket that I didn't even need that was the culprit. Grrrrrr !

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Although they will sap a little more power

It is not uncommon for a dry sumped motor to produce more power than a wet sump motor.
Especially the case with larger engines (particularly V8')s that splash a lot of oil around in the pan. Reason is two fold, first the crank hitting the bits of oil slow it down, second the partial vacuum state means less air resistance. Actually, when you think of it they are actually the same reason - Newtons third law and all that... the end result is less resistance, regardless of what it is from.
Some people believe that the vacuum in the sump helps pull the pistons down, but that really is a load of rubbish, after all every piston going down also needs to go up, ditto with helping the rings seal to produce more power... lets see, combustion pressure averages 12 bar, sump vacuum 0.1 bar... hmmm

[Robyn Slater]

Is there a minimum regulation capacity for a drysump catch tank?

Is it necessary to have a breather from the rockerbox to the oil tank?

Talking precrossflow ford here

[GORDON STREETER]

I dont actually know if there is a regulation size as I have seen everything and anything ! used over the years.
As for a breather as it realy needs one, run it into the catch tank then run a pipe from the catch tank into the oil tank. Blank off the crankcase breather or plumb it into the rocker cover.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16345037@N03/2469669739/

[Robyn Slater]

Thanks Gordon,
Burton list a "regulation" size tank at 2L. I cant find anything in the blue book about it.I,ve gone and made a small tank which is about 3/4 L and now i,m not sure if its big enough.

Does it make a difference if the rocker breather goes to the oil tank?

Cheers

[Notso Swift]

THe FIA one is 2 litres for under 2000cc and 3 litres for over 3000cc.

How the engine capacity has anything to do with the oil capacity is beyond me, I guess it dates to Noah being a boy.

MSA may be different. I am sure it will be in your book (Is it the Blue book that has standing requirements for an Automobile)

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

Does it make a difference if the rocker breather goes to the oil tank?

Cheers

You could run into the oil tank, its just that any engine condensation goes into the catch tank first. You still need to run a breather from the oil tank, although you could T it in with the one from the rocker cover to the catch tank.

[tzei]

Where does accusump fit in/ gets connected in dry sump system? Between pump and filter would be my guess but...

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by tzei

Where does accusump fit in/ gets connected in dry sump system? Between pump and filter would be my guess but...

You wouldn't use an accusump on a dry sump system, it isn't needed because, in theory, the supply of oil to the pump will never be interrupted on a dry sump system. If it is then your tank is too small or something has gone horribly wrong.

[GORDON STREETER]

You could run an accusump in a dry sump system for the purpose of "pre oiling" if you wanted to, especially if the car isn't used a lot. But that's the only reason IMHO.

[Al Weyman]

I wonder how important pre-oiling really is? Road cars do hundreds of thousands of miles stop starting all day long and dont seem to have problems. I wonder if a lot of this kit is just simply must have hype that makes not a jot of difference, I remain to be convinced. And what about these new things that stop the engine and restart in traffic, if it was a problem they are not going to last long. I pre-oil a new chevy engine prior to running it up but have also read top engine builders opinion that this is a load of cods as well as long as the engine is assembled correctly.

[GORDON STREETER]

Absolutely agree Al, I only said about pre oiling because it was the only reason as regards dry sump.
As for the engine stopping in traffic being new, I had an 80s Audi 80 that had just that facility, and I believe it was fitted to some of the VWs as well. There ain't nothing new

[Al Weyman]

Yes I remember as well, got through a few starters and ring gears I bet! I know we digress but I had a geen moment last night on the way home. You know when you turn the aircon on it sups power, so why not have a system whereby the aircon only come on when the car is deaccelerating or going down hill in the same way as the Prius recharges its batteries, just a thought. :-)