2013 MSA Proposed Rule Change "Track Limits"

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by MotorSport Vision

........ albeit perhaps with wording that makes it clear the kerbs can be used but nothing beyond.

I'll live with that
:-)

[SWCRacing]

Get the FIA to change the International Sporting Code regulation before changing the MSA Blue Book regulation and avoid confusion.

And if the regulation is changed are MotorSport Vision going to reduce circuit hire fees?? Doubt it.....

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by MotorSport Vision

Please support the regulation change if you think it makes sense, albeit perhaps with wording that makes it clear the kerbs can be used but nothing beyond.

Very happy to support it. Personally I'd have stuck with the white line being the edge, the kerbs being the things that protect the circuit beyond it if someone runs wide.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Personally I'd have stuck with the white line being the edge, the kerbs being the things that protect the circuit beyond it if someone runs wide.

Me too.
If the white lines were painted on the inside of the kerbs, then they could be used; if they are (as now) painted on the track, then the kerbs would seem, to me, to be off limits.

That would be far easier to police IMO.

I'd go for a 5 second time penalty added to the race time for the first offence, 20 seconds for each subsequent offence. No flag warnings, which would cut the ridiculous amount of race admin currently required.

We'll soon get the hang of it.

[50-SIX]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Get the FIA to change the International Sporting Code regulation before changing the MSA Blue Book regulation and avoid confusion.

And if the regulation is changed are MotorSport Vision going to reduce circuit hire fees?? Doubt it.....

Exactly. 300quid for 4 x 30mins sessions. I should be able to take some turf home for my lawn!

Agreed the regulation needs clarifying, but my heart strings are broken if we go down the 'poor old circuit owner' route. Don't get me wrong, msv have done a great job at giving their circuits a face lift, but the test days ain't cheap, and I'm sure there's enough margin in it before anyone starts going hungry.

[dtype38]

Personally, I'm happy with any rule that's actually enforced for all equally. Then it becomes a simple rule of the sport. What I object to is being read the riot act by Brand Hatch officials about not running over kerbs because of the expensive damage it does to the grass, etc, only to watch BTCC, DTM or even HGV's racing the same circuit the following week and treating half of the infield and outfield as legitimate racing lines.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Personally, I'm happy with any rule that's actually enforced for all equally. Then it becomes a simple rule of the sport. What I object to is being read the riot act by Brand Hatch officials about not running over kerbs because of the expensive damage it does to the grass, etc, only to watch BTCC, DTM or even HGV's racing the same circuit the following week and treating half of the infield and outfield as legitimate racing lines.

Yes, they should be setting an example to us, not the other way around...

Maybe fines would work. The money collected from one BTCC round would mean all club racers get free entries to all of their races all year!!

[bravo]

a) the edge of the track shall be defined by white lines and any kerbs
(b) Should any wheel of the car no longer remain within the track, defined in (a) above, it a driver will be judged to have left the track

Is this 4 wheels off?




Or how about this?

[yesnomaybe]

would be amusing to see if anyone can find a pic of JP with four wheels off

i think the rule change defines a kerb as anything with a kerb feature, e.g. raised, so wouldnt the green bit at paddock hill bend for example still be usable because its raised, level with the red and white kerbs?

50-Six, 2 hours track time for only £300? sounds like a bargain to me, a lot of clubs pay that for sprint racing e.g. less than half the total track time

anyway to answer the above questions ignoring the fact that its of F1 cars where the same rules dont apply,
also with the rules change the four wheels off terminology doesnt apply
pic 1 - the car isnt touching the white lines or tarmac so is four wheels off under current rules and its using track beyond the kerb, so its off the track according to the possible changed version of the rules as well
pic 2 - yes its above the grass

if i can be bothered i might do a graphic showing what is and isnt driving off the track both currently and with the possible rule change, a pictures worth a thousand words and all that!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

i think the rule change defines a kerb as anything with a kerb feature, e.g. raised, so wouldnt the green bit at paddock hill bend for example still be usable because its raised, level with the red and white kerbs?

my underline
It's not raised nor level with the kerbs (despite them being worn down by years of usage).
It may be currently useable but using the full width at the bottom (ie 4 wheels over the white line) is not allowed except by nonMSA race series.

Why do so many try and make this a complex issue?

Race between the white lines that define the track. That's the current rule. All the MSA is trying to do is improve the defintion is how little of the car should repeatedly and deliberately be outside a limit, because that's what drivers argue about. I speak here as someone who catalogued a BTCC weekend's worth of indiscretions. Never have I had my judgement so publically criticised by the drivers & critically appraised by the race organisers.

BTW I was always right...
BTCC drivers

[yesnomaybe]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

Race between the white lines that define the track. That's the current rule.

sorry, no it isnt

the current rule says that if no part of the car remains in contact with the track, then it will have been judged to have left the track, so you can use lots of kerb at paddock for example as long as the right hand side wheels are touching the white lines or tarmac... you can trail wheels off the tarmac, through grass etc, as long as you're still touching tarmac or the white lines with the other wheels, thats quiet different than having to drive within the white lines, drivers will always drive to the limit of the rules

i think this is why lots of drivers get frustrated with 4 wheels off penalties at the moment and argue the toss etc, especially if the kerb is big enough to get the car fully onto, because its quiet difficult for an observer to see if a wheel is touching the white line or not, imo the proposed rule change makes offenses much easier to see and report as they just have to look for a wheel touching gravel, grass, non raised kerbs

the proposed rule change is a complete change, you can't touch anything other than kerbs or tarmac, im all for the change as it should prevent glass damage to my race car from debris being thrown up by others

also i think this pic shows quiet clealry that the green part at paddock is level with the raised red and white kerbs
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coletri...7630285859180/

[terence]

Excellent picture to have chosen,clearly show's the track limiting white line in front of the kerbing! Go that far off on some parts of some circuits would result on damage. Perhaps now the re-writing of the ORIGINAL ruling will clarify that the black bit is our's,anything over the line,is theirs.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by bravo

Is this 4 wheels off?




Or how about this?

Yes and yes.

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

i think this pic shows quiet clealry that the green part at paddock is level with the raised red and white kerbs
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coletri...7630285859180/

Quite the opposite.
It is quite clear in that picture that the red and white section is not just raised but serrated.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

also i think this pic shows quiet clealry that the green part at paddock is level with the raised red and white kerbs
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coletri...7630285859180/

I think you'd have a hard time arguing with Bodysnatcher that the green is at the same level with the kerbing at Paddock... He does stand on that kerbing most weekends, waiting to hand in reports for four wheels over....

[Bodysnatcher]

Thanks Mini, sometimes people just cannot understand that others might actually know better.& For clarification I do not do 4wo from post4A, the angles are all wrong, but I am very familiar with the kerbing and the green zone.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

Thanks Mini, sometimes people just cannot understand that others might actually know better.& For clarification I do not do 4wo from post4A, the angles are all wrong, but I am very familiar with the kerbing and the green zone.

Yeah true 4wo is normally done from 4....

[yesnomaybe]

if you look at the picture you can see the kerb (red and white part) has a curved shape to it where the white ginetta is, so it is raised at that point, but no depth of the kerb can be seen, therefore the green bit must at the same level as the kerb at that point, however the kerb does look flush with the track level where the black nissan is

anyhow thats a bit academic because the reg change says kerbs are 'typically' raised (e.g. not always) and are painted alternative colours, presumably alternative than the track colour, so i would assume that the green part would still be classified as part of the kerb

sorry to disagree with Bodysnatcher but this is a forum

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

because its quiet difficult for an observer to see if a wheel is touching the white line or not,

Depends on the location. In some places it's very easy to see, in others almost impossible. Whatever the location, common sense applies - if you can't be 100% sure, don't call it in.

imo the proposed rule change makes offenses much easier to see and report as they just have to look for a wheel touching gravel, grass, non raised kerbs

Once again, it depends on the location - in some places it will be more difficult, in others it may be easier.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

if you look at the picture you can see the kerb (red and white part) has a curved shape to it where the white ginetta is, so it is raised at that point, but no depth of the kerb can be seen, therefore the green bit must at the same level as the kerb at that point, however the kerb does look flush with the track level where the black nissan is

anyhow thats a bit academic because the reg change says kerbs are 'typically' raised (e.g. not always) and are painted alternative colours, presumably alternative than the track colour, so i would assume that the green part would still be classified as part of the kerb

sorry to disagree with Bodysnatcher but this is a forum

Having stood on that piece of tarmac many times, I think both Bodysnatcher and myself can assure you that the green apron is not at the same level as the kerb. The green apron is the same level as the track and the kerbs have a rounded profile

Also if the green apron is the same level why do many single seaters produce sparks as they pass over the kerb, but not as they run along the apron?

[pauln]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

anyhow thats a bit academic because the reg change says kerbs are 'typically' raised (e.g. not always) and are painted alternative colours, presumably alternative than the track colour, so i would assume that the green part would still be classified as part of the kerb

I'm pretty certain alternative means the red/white that the kerb itself is painted. As others have noted there's no way that the green bit could be considered "kerb" - very similar situation through Copse at Silverstone.

[deley]

People can continue to debate what they think is or isn't meant by the proposed wording but given that the consultation period closed on 31st July it is somewhat academic now.

Based on the discussion here and in other threads it is clear that there is a need for some clarity. I would imagine that in the light of consultation feedback that I am sure the MSA will have received (I certainly sent them some) then a revised version will appear at some point.

Dave

[Russfeld]

If they don't want people to drive it, stop paving it. The ultra wide corner exits are a relatively new invention. Within the last decade basically.

It wasn't that long ago that you had a thinnish 'normal' kerb that was often so high it wasn't any use. Ie Thruxton. What was the wisdom in shaving those kerbs down?

And slightly earlier before that it was just grass. So if you dropped a wheel you went slower.

This just seems like it's inviting controversy. Because people will end up forced onto kerbed areas and even if there's a judgement call it will still always be a judgement and inviting a disagreement. Whereas the situation we had was silly but at least it wasn't controversial. And there are better solutions if you want to fix the silly aspect.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by Russfeld

Ie Thruxton. What was the wisdom in shaving those kerbs down?

Bikes

[yesnomaybe]

So i've got my blue book for 2013 here, any nothings changed, shame

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

So i've got my blue book for 2013 here, any nothings changed, shame

The MSA announced that no change was being made a few months ago.