Lites / LMP3

[joeb]

Originally Posted by mariantic

Infinity Race Engineering withdraw Adess from AsLMS

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/inf...revenir-en-gt/

car "like a rough diamond"

"customers are not ready to jump into a car that needed development"



Mariantic

Can't really blame them for not wanted to run an inferior car.

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by joeb

ACO isn't happy with the 24 hour series allowing P3.

http://sportscar365.com/gt/24hseries...-proto-series/

It seems ACO wants a fee to be paid to them. I would understand that in a way, but can't anybody buy a P3 and run it where they want? There are cars running stateside in private hands and the ACO isn't complaining about that so really I don't see the difference.

I think I'm going to copy the "LMP3" *TM rules, delete the paragraph that limits the number of chassis makers and call this new rule set "SRP3". Creventic is more than welcome to use it.


The ACO is not helping the sport by doing things like this.

[FormulaFox]

Depending on what trademarks/copyrights/patents they've filed, the ACO can feasibly block unapproved usage of any car that uses the LMP3 spec safety cell.

I do not know the specifics of what's been filed about what on the LMP3, so I'm not saying this IS the case, but I know it's legally possible for this to be the case.

Lack of complaints about the Ginetta G57, however, lead me to believe they only have true control over the specific rules as used in their version of the class and Creventic could get around it by doing something as simple as requiring a different engine.

[peebee2]

That's simple?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by peebee2

That's simple?

In the big picture, yes. It's far simpler to change the engine than, say, design an entirely new body for the car.

True, changing the engine is not, in and of itself, simple. But insofar as things that could be done to move away from the ACO LMP3 specs sufficiently to not have any concerns about conflicts, it is by FAR the simplest option.

That said, ratehr than just use LMP3, I'd rather they made a class for unique cars built around the LMP3 safety cell, but running whatever engine/aero package the designers want. Allow LMP3s into the class if you want, but help make it stand out a bit more(particularly with LMP3 in real danger of being a de facto spec class).

[peebee2]

The whole point is to have one car that can easily be used in more than one series. So butchering the car won't really work and would also destroy the value of your car investment.

[Giba]

Obviously worried about the success of the championship and how it will affect the ELMS grid numbers in the future as otherwise this seems to be a drastic step.

Does anyone know if SRO have a similar thing with GT3 or is it just they are happy for anyone to use them? (which seems the right idea imo)

[rdjones]

I understand that the according to EUIPO's database that the ACO only filed for the trademark 'LMP3' on 29/9/2016.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The whole point is to have one car that can easily be used in more than one series. So butchering the car won't really work and would also destroy the value of your car investment.

First of all, switching an engine to go from one series to another is not a big deal for any race team that's prepared to race in championships like 24H and ELMS. All you need is an engine that can be fitted without major modifications to the car itself - and as the LMP3 engine is non-stressed(sofar as I know - it's never been expressly stated, but as it's a very simple way to lower the cost of the car and engine I'm assuming such until information to the contrary surfaces), requiring at least a partial subframe to be fitted to any LMP3 design, that's not actually going to be a very difficult thing to do.

Secondly, not everyone is going to be concerned with switching from one championship to another anyway. In fact, I'd bet money less than half the teams interested in either would be concerned with crossing over.

The point is diversifying the 24H series to appeal to the widest possible variety of teams to ensure it's long-term health. If the ACO doesn't want to play ball with allowing them access to LMP3, they have to look at other options. What's the simplest option they can get away with? LMP3 with a different engine.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I understand that the according to EUIPO's database that the ACO only filed for the trademark 'LMP3' on 29/9/2016.

The name trademark wouldn't really be the issue here - that'd be as easy to get around as not using the name for the class.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

First of all, switching an engine to go from one series to another is not a big deal for any race team that's prepared to race in championships like 24H and ELMS.

I can just imagine a race engineer's response to that, by the time they have thought about weight distribution, changed the electronics and totally reprogrammed the gearbox!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

I can just imagine a race engineer's response to that, by the time they have thought about weight distribution, changed the electronics and totally reprogrammed the gearbox!

[joeb]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I understand that the according to EUIPO's database that the ACO only filed for the trademark 'LMP3' on 29/9/2016.

Hmm, seems a little late for that ACO.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

In the big picture, yes. It's far simpler to change the engine than, say, design an entirely new body for the car.

True, changing the engine is not, in and of itself, simple. But insofar as things that could be done to move away from the ACO LMP3 specs sufficiently to not have any concerns about conflicts, it is by FAR the simplest option.

That said, ratehr than just use LMP3, I'd rather they made a class for unique cars built around the LMP3 safety cell, but running whatever engine/aero package the designers want. Allow LMP3s into the class if you want, but help make it stand out a bit more(particularly with LMP3 in real danger of being a de facto spec class).

What makes you think Creventic is looking at 'moving away' from the ACO? I don't know what happened in the build up to their announcement but apparently Creventic didn't make that somewhat important phone call to the ACO prior to it.

The far simplest solution for Creventic to solve this issue is to start talking to the ACO - I believe they fully intent on doing just that as soon as possible. Let's give 'm a little time to accomplish that. I'm sure they'll work out their differences (if there are any, sounds more like the classic "misunderstanding" to me) and all will be fine.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

What makes you think Creventic is looking at 'moving away' from the ACO?

Nothing - I'm not assuming they have any intention of doing so at all. This is a "what if" scenario should Creventic not be able to work things out.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

I can just imagine a race engineer's response to that, by the time they have thought about weight distribution, changed the electronics and totally reprogrammed the gearbox!

Point still stands: It's still simpler than the other options available to change the car sufficiently.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I can understand ACO owns the "LMP3" name but I find it hard to believe they can forbid an organizer to run a class for these cars or an owner to race these cars in a series.

Indeed!

[chernaudi]

Changing the engine is an issue of set up changes and possibly needing a new rear subframe if the dimensional and weight differences are big enough.

As I understand it, LMP3s use a non-stress mounted engine. Much like the older DP cars, most LMP2 cars, and the adapted new rules LMP2s that will become DPI cars. Though such a change presents its own difficulties, it's not like dealing with a fully stressed engine set up. Imagine doing such an engine change to an Audi R18. That'd involve taking a 3.7 or 4.0 V6 with a 120 degree cylinder bank angle and adapting it to take the 3.6 or 4.0 DFI V8 would involve a lot of detail re-engineering that if you're Audi Sport, you'd almost be better off to make a new tub.

Things on the whole are a lot less complex with a non-stress mounted motor. Granted, it still entails its own problems to get it right.

[Coach Ep]

US numbers keep growing:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/1...-dayvtech.html

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

US numbers keep growing:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/1...-dayvtech.html

That is good to see. I hope we have a nice grid of cars for the opening PC rounds of 2017. Ligier is the safe bet, but I wonder if Norma will get a car to materialize stateside as planned. Also, how may will Riley/Ave sell?

[Bob Baldwin]

At this point we are very perplexed with the LACK of news coming from thr Riely / Ave camp in reguards to the LMP-3 Deal

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

At this point we are very perplexed with the LACK of news coming from thr Riely / Ave camp in reguards to the LMP-3 Deal

At this rate, P3 is going to become a de facto spec class.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

At this point we are very perplexed with the LACK of news coming from thr Riely / Ave camp in reguards to the LMP-3 Deal

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

At this rate, P3 is going to become a de facto spec class.

As of mid-September they had sold 6 chassis.

Ave said he’s already sold six cars, with the first completed chassis, which took part in a multi-day test at the Red Bull Ring in July, on display in the paddock at Circuit of The Americas this weekend.

Of course there is no word on what those 6 chassis will be used for. Imsa? track days? other?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by joeb

As of mid-September they had sold 6 chassis.

And yet they have still not debuted because, according to Riley, the car needs more development. And even if they do, if the cars are complete junk it won't be long before the teams that bought them replace them.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

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And yet they have still not debuted because, according to Riley, the car needs more development. And even if they do, if the cars are complete junk it won't be long before the teams that bought them replace them.

It's not junk - there is only one reason why the car hasn't raced - they can find more speed (lessons learned in the Riley-Multimatic LMP2 design process) - and with a 4 year homologation lock-down it makes perfect sense to have the fastest car you can.