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Old 28 Aug 2012, 06:10 (Ref:3126162)   #51
Deemun
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Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
Going back to the original list and looking at the wins to starts ratios. It makes for interesting reading in so far as statistics can but statistics never show the full story.

Fangio 47%
Ascari 41%
Clark 34%
M.Schumacher 30%
Stewart 27%
Prost 26%
Senna 25%
Vettel 24%
Moss 24%
Hamilton 19%
Mansell 17%
Alonso 16%
Lauda 15%
Haikkinen 12%
Piquet 11%
Brabham 11%
Rindt 10%
Fittipaldi 10%
G. Hill 8%
G Villenuve 6%

Other possibles

Raikkonen 11%
Peterson 8%
Button 6%

If Schumacher had not come back he would have a 36% win ratio putting him ahead of Clark.
The drivers who spend more time in good cars come out best in this list.
Still the cream rises to the top.
Very true! 1996 World Champion Damon Hill who does not appear above achieved an overall win ratio of 19% putting him level with Lewis Hamilton but if he'd quit after taking the title in 96 he'd have acheived a 41% win ratio which would have put 2nd equal to Fangio with Ascari!
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 06:23 (Ref:3126165)   #52
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Michael Schumacher is number 1 in every measure except for people's personal opinion... so maybe it should be phrased as 'your favourite Formula One driver' or something along those lines.
but Schumacher cheated
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 07:31 (Ref:3126192)   #53
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but Schumacher cheated
He was penalized for his misdemeanours and lost a championship over it. Ayrton Senna wasn't and didn't.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 07:38 (Ref:3126195)   #54
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One issue I have over the Fangio, Clark etc... situation, and even more so over the pre-war combatants, is that they raced in era where motorsport was a plaything for extraordinarily rich individuals. Only really in the 1970s and beyond did we start to get people in Formula One who scaled a ladder of sorts earning their stripes along the way... and the fact that people like Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Kubica et al originated from more humble beginnings speaks volumes more about their talent and achievement.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 09:35 (Ref:3126248)   #55
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Originally Posted by davyboy View Post
One issue I have over the Fangio, Clark etc... situation, and even more so over the pre-war combatants, is that they raced in era where motorsport was a plaything for extraordinarily rich individuals. Only really in the 1970s and beyond did we start to get people in Formula One who scaled a ladder of sorts earning their stripes along the way... and the fact that people like Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Kubica et al originated from more humble beginnings speaks volumes more about their talent and achievement.
There's all kinds of problems with comparing numbers. For example, was the competition as hard in then early 00s as in the early 90s or the seventies? Both Prost and Senna would probably have better statistics if they didn't race each other. Still very interesting though!
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 09:59 (Ref:3126253)   #56
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The reasons why I'm biased towards the Clark and pre-war aces is that death was an astonishingly routine and regular fixture during their era; this demanding an unusual degree of courage and bravery to blend with their skill. Incredible speeds, no seatbelts, no safety provisions, sometimes casualties every second race! I know the wealthy garage owner/executive type would pack out alot of the grid out back then but the first few aces usually were what they are cracked up to be. I remember Schumacher test driving I think it was Alboreto's turbo Ferrari and he got out of even that very uneasily!
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 11:59 (Ref:3126310)   #57
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The reasons why I'm biased towards the Clark and pre-war aces is that death was an astonishingly routine and regular fixture during their era; this demanding an unusual degree of courage and bravery to blend with their skill. Incredible speeds, no seatbelts, no safety provisions, sometimes casualties every second race! I know the wealthy garage owner/executive type would pack out alot of the grid out back then but the first few aces usually were what they are cracked up to be. I remember Schumacher test driving I think it was Alboreto's turbo Ferrari and he got out of even that very uneasily!
It's very hard to tell how skilful these guys really were as so few ever got the opportunity to compete at all, let alone at that level. They may well have been brilliant, then again they may of mediocre... as has been said... we will never know.

In terms of the bravery [or madness depending on your viewpoint], several contemporary drivers have highlighted that... but then we live in a completely different era and whereas extreme danger was an accepted part of the equation in the past, and drivers drove within that hazard, today it isn't and people approach it differently. On the other side, Fangio would probably struggle to get his belly into a modern F1 car... and even if he did... his fitness would be far from what's required to get through a Grand Prix.

As I said earlier, stats is all we have to go on when comparing across era. Drivers raced against the best available at their time... some rose above the others and dominated for a period and each of them are among the greats. The greatest is the guy who tops all the stats. There's just no other way to do the exercise, other to base it on a favourite or play out 'what ifs'.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 12:20 (Ref:3126321)   #58
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The greatest is the guy who tops all the stats. There's just no other way to do the exercise, other to base it on a favourite or play out 'what ifs'.
Which is of course THREE ways to do the exercise.....
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 12:22 (Ref:3126322)   #59
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Which is of course THREE ways to do the exercise.....
I was going to say that I ought to read through what I write before I post it, but your proofing is even better
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 12:37 (Ref:3126331)   #60
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It's very hard to tell how skilful these guys really were as so few ever got the opportunity to compete at all, let alone at that level. They may well have been brilliant, then again they may of mediocre... as has been said... we will never know.

In terms of the bravery [or madness depending on your viewpoint], several contemporary drivers have highlighted that... but then we live in a completely different era and whereas extreme danger was an accepted part of the equation in the past, and drivers drove within that hazard, today it isn't and people approach it differently. On the other side, Fangio would probably struggle to get his belly into a modern F1 car... and even if he did... his fitness would be far from what's required to get through a Grand Prix.

As I said earlier, stats is all we have to go on when comparing across era. Drivers raced against the best available at their time... some rose above the others and dominated for a period and each of them are among the greats. The greatest is the guy who tops all the stats. There's just no other way to do the exercise, other to base it on a favourite or play out 'what ifs'.
I agree, which is why I haven't posted a top-20. Whenever anyone attempts one of these lists, it ends in argument and petty disagreements.

I like your recollection of Schumi trying the Alboreto Ferrari - I vaguely remember Jacques Villeneuve doing some PR exercise when he was supposed to drive an old car, and he refused because he thought it was too dangerous. No seat belts, or some such.

I know where you're coming from when you suggest that Fangio would not be fit enough to drive a contemporary F1 car, G-forces and all, but he was renowned for his stamina in his day. He used to drive prodigious distances in the old Argentinian town-to-town races, and was one of only two drivers (the other was another Argentinian Roberto Mieres) who managed to complete the full distance in the 1955 Argentine GP, which was run in furnace-like temperatures. Most other cars which finished had three or four "shared" drivers. Having said all that, the Old Man was friendly with his local pharmacist, if you know what I mean.

Whilst we all criticise the likes of the pay-drivers who trundle around at the back in today's GP races, they are all a damn sight better racers than many of the regulars in the 50s/60s, who were wealthy garage owners or playboy types who liked to show off to the girls. Hence the huge differences in lap times - BCE has got rid of them to make the sport more professional.

I still hanker for the old days, though.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 15:30 (Ref:3126378)   #61
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Fangio still has chances?
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 16:02 (Ref:3126394)   #62
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Fangio still has chances?
He was regarded in awe by his peers.If he was on the entry list in a competitive car, the others used to discuss who would come second.

You've only got to read the biographies of them, like Moss or Brooks, to get the picture. It was all so easy for him - the only time he acknowledged he was on his limit was the famous 1957 GermanGP.

And to cap it all, he was modest, and a complete gentleman. Some people have it all.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 20:14 (Ref:3126522)   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
Going back to the original list and looking at the wins to starts ratios. It makes for interesting reading in so far as statistics can but statistics never show the full story.

Fangio 47%
Ascari 41%
Clark 34%
M.Schumacher 30%
Stewart 27%
Prost 26%
Senna 25%
Vettel 24%
Moss 24%
Hamilton 19%
Mansell 17%
Alonso 16%
Lauda 15%
Haikkinen 12%
Piquet 11%
Brabham 11%
Rindt 10%
Fittipaldi 10%
G. Hill 8%
G Villenuve 6%

Other possibles

Raikkonen 11%
Peterson 8%
Button 6%

If Schumacher had not come back he would have a 36% win ratio putting him ahead of Clark.
The drivers who spend more time in good cars come out best in this list.
Still the cream rises to the top.
I am adding in all the other world champions and drivers with 10 or over GP wins.

Damon Hill 19%
Farina 15%
Hunt 11%
Jones 10%
Mario Andretti 9%
Scheckter 9%
Hawthorn 7%
Hulme 7%
Jacques Villenuve 7%
Phil Hill 6%
Surtees 5%

Reutemann 8%
Massa 7%
Berger 5%
Coultard 5%
Barichello 3%
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 20:42 (Ref:3126542)   #64
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I think he would have won one or two more - and maybe Schumacher would have won one less.
So you don't rate Senna then !
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 20:48 (Ref:3126546)   #65
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FastDB2s should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Clark had a much higher win ratio than 34%, remember there were non Championship Grand Prix then, most of the GP drivers competed in them then for the start & prize money.
If you read Dymocks book then he won the same as Prost over a much shorter time, in less GPs.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 20:58 (Ref:3126556)   #66
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Clark had a much higher win ratio than 34%, remember there were non Championship Grand Prix then, most of the GP drivers competed in them then for the start & prize money.
If you read Dymocks book then he won the same as Prost over a much shorter time, in less GPs.
Clark did everything... BTCC, Indy, F1, F2 etc... all at the same time but in many of the events he drove in, the opposition was significantly below what one would expect of F1 calibre... not just in terms of the drivers but also in terms of the cars. There's no doubting that Clark was an incredible pilot but we need to bear in mind what he was up against when he was racking many of his victories up.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 21:16 (Ref:3126562)   #67
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Drivers below par like Surtees, Brabham, McLaren, Graham Hill, Phil Hill, Ginther, Gurney, later on Hulme & Stewart, so on & so on.

Schumacher definately had below par opposition after the death of Senna.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 21:19 (Ref:3126564)   #68
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Clark did everything... BTCC, Indy, F1, F2 etc... all at the same time but in many of the events he drove in, the opposition was significantly below what one would expect of F1 calibre... not just in terms of the drivers but also in terms of the cars. There's no doubting that Clark was an incredible pilot but we need to bear in mind what he was up against when he was racking many of his victories up.

Whoa, hold on there, I say hold on there boy!
I'm not a Clark "fan" but I hugely respect his ability, and would have loved to have seen him up against an experienced Stewart. And Rindt come to that.

In F1 he invariably had the faster car, but had to hope it lasted the race. Those days he had to contend with G.Hill, Surtees and Gurney, all of whom could beat him on their day. In F2 the Lotus wasn't always the cream of the field, and in sports cars the Loti 30 and 40 were pigs to drive. Yes, he was better than the other saloon car boys, but he only did it for the fun, and to keep Chapman happy. At Indy it's fair to say the car was best of the field, but he had to contend with the Indy regulars and the Indy establishment, who in those days did not like "furriners" taking home the prizes.

I don't think he had things easy at all - he really was that good.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 21:46 (Ref:3126586)   #69
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So you don't rate Senna then !
Senna is in my top four, but so is Schumacher. They would have had some stupendous battles, but within a couple of years I think Schumacher would have taken the upper hand.

On Clark, he had the unique knack of being able to jump in/on anything with wheels and an engine and make it go quicker than it had any right to go. He didn't need time to get used to it, he could go quickly straight out of the box. Nobody else has had such a raw talent to the level that Clark had. He also - tragically in the end - had an ability to go out and post fastest lap after fastest lap in machinery he didn't entirely trust.

Clark's competitors weren't below par. He just made them look that way.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 21:53 (Ref:3126590)   #70
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Interestingly G.Hill had to work at being a world class driver, Clark largely didn't know where his god given came from.
Lotus mechanics used to change brake pads on Clark's car even though they were hardly worn, because Hill's were always worn out, 'it was embarasing' they reckoned !
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 21:58 (Ref:3126592)   #71
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Another thing with Clark - most naturally gifted drivers will happily jump in any old kart and drive it quickly but aren't able to help the team improve the car (Kimi springs to mind). Clark had that natural gift, but he could also explain exactly what the car was doing, and was usually right about what changes would make it faster.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 22:09 (Ref:3126595)   #72
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Clark did everything... BTCC, Indy, F1, F2 etc... all at the same time but in many of the events he drove in, the opposition was significantly below what one would expect of F1 calibre... not just in terms of the drivers but also in terms of the cars. There's no doubting that Clark was an incredible pilot but we need to bear in mind what he was up against when he was racking many of his victories up.
I was lucky enough to see Clark rack up some of those wins and believe me he was in a class of his own. You can only race against whoever else is there at the time of course but I'm pretty sure he'd be a match for anyone on that list.

The other driver that always impressed me was Fittipaldi. I was driving at Snetterton the day he had his first test in the Jim Russell F3 and he was a revelation, jaw-dropingly quick. I think he could have gone on to far greater things in F1 had he not made a few bad choices for what he thought were the right reasons.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 22:25 (Ref:3126599)   #73
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To apply your skill, totally exposed to death, with casualties all around you, is something unknown to drivers today. Tragedies, happen today of course but they are rare, thankfully. It was almost like war back in the 'golden era'.

It puts accomplishments of Clark, Fangio and Nuvolari into another cosmos, IMO. We'll never know if Alonso could compete/surpass that because society simply doesn't tolerate that sheer degree of reckless danger.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 22:44 (Ref:3126609)   #74
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Another thing with Clark - most naturally gifted drivers will happily jump in any old kart and drive it quickly but aren't able to help the team improve the car (Kimi springs to mind). Clark had that natural gift, but he could also explain exactly what the car was doing, and was usually right about what changes would make it faster.
In 1964, Clark drove the Hon Patrick Lindsay's ERA 'Remus' at Rouen, after just 4 laps he beat not only Lindsay's pole time but lapped faster than any ERA had ever lapped.

However I remember Senna (with some other drivers) did a rallytest in Wales with CCC, several rally cars were used , Senna was very quick IIRC.
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Old 28 Aug 2012, 23:37 (Ref:3126623)   #75
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I was lucky enough to see Clark rack up some of those wins and believe me he was in a class of his own. You can only race against whoever else is there at the time of course but I'm pretty sure he'd be a match for anyone on that list.

The other driver that always impressed me was Fittipaldi. I was driving at Snetterton the day he had his first test in the Jim Russell F3 and he was a revelation, jaw-dropingly quick. I think he could have gone on to far greater things in F1 had he not made a few bad choices for what he thought were the right reasons.
I was also lucky enough to see Clark and would fully endorse your comments.

The awe Clark's peers held him in I think speaks for itself.

Jack Brabham must certainly have a shot at the best ever, based on all round ability!
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