Protyre Motorsport BARC F Renault 2012 - Page 2

RPD Motorsport · 26 Jun 2012, 14:48 (Ref:3098462)

Hey all, thought I might add the direct views of a team to the mix here...

There is no technical reason that the FR2000 cars cannot be made to run by a man and van team/ father than son, but the truth is that the level of time and depth of preperation these days is more than most people with a 9-5 job could manage.

For example, before each round of 2011 our car had
-full gearbox rebuild
-diff rebuild
-all aero kit removed and tub inspected
-engine removed and mounts crack tested
-engine leak down tested and inspected with endoscope
-uprights/wheelbearings rebuilt
-Dampers dyno tested and rebuilt as needed
-Rockers and ARBs rebuilt
-brakes rebuild every 2 rounds
-wiring loom checked at every pin through length
-steering rack every 2 rounds
ect...

That takes between 3 and 5 days for 3 mechanics full time provided there is nothing wrong. I will be the first to admit that not all of that is required every time, but by doing it every time is the only way you can ensure 100% reliability, make sure that your 'tweeks' are not working components too hard, and make sure everything feels at its best. Rebuilding and polishing a steering rack is does not make a car faster, but does make the steering feel like silk and that makes driver more happy with your car than team xyz, and that matters. That is why our cars and a couple of the other 'good teams' (IMHO) have not had any mechanical failures in 3 or more seasons, and privately run cars do have them regularly. None of the prep in the above list is beyond the skill of a good home mechanic, but the time and kit may be.

Likewise for data aynalasis - its where the real time is at in Jnr racing. All of the cars on the grid from good teams are split by 1.5 sec or less, but there is a huge amount in the drivers. Over the winter we had a 2011 series leader who is currently in the top few of BARC test with us. He had not had data engineering before our test. He was more than 3 secs off the pace at BH. 1 day of data engineering later and he was within 2 tenths of the LR. Data analysis at a basic level is again doable for driver and dad, but to do a half decent job you need a dedicated data engineer due to time requirements. With 30 mins between test sessions, you need 5 mins to plug in and download, 10 min for analysis and then 5 to run though with driver. You cant fit that in and physically prep the car... There is also a massive differance between looking at the difference between 2 lines (as you may have some fast data too) and between data ENGINEERING. Our data engineer will also be aynalising damper data, making sure damping rates and transferability are correct, roll ect... This means we can set up a car without listning to a drivers feeback - half of what we teach at this level if how to accurately feedback on a cars handling.

Setup can be a minefield, and to be frank, it is not possible to set up a car to be fast from driver feel. That is just a provable fact with chassis dynamics. The best setup is when you minimize contact patch force variation through all road input frequencies. That means aynalasis of the pitch, heave and warp modes, as well as calculating effects of heave/jounce on aero. To do that needs at lot of maths and engineering. You can get a dam good setup off of feel, but a much better one by using 4/7 post rigs, multibody simulations and 1st principals, obviously confirmed with real testing. This only needs to be done once for each team... The reason that setupa end up differant is that imagen you have the perfect setup... this does the best thing possible AT THE TYRES, the sprung mass, i.e. the body may be going nuts and the car may feel horrible to drive. In this case the driver may only ger 40% out of the setup, ending up slow. However they may find a setup through feel that they can get 100% from as they are happy and comfortable. A race engineers job is to push the setup as close as possible to 'dynamicly optimal' whilst ensuring the driver cann get the most from it.

So to cap it off, yes a man/van can run, bit in real life will struggle to compete with the 'bigger' team who are doing all of the above. In real life it takes 1 person per car to just do fuel and wheel washing, 1 person to mechanic it and at least 1 to do data. A 'good' team will then also have a data engineer using data to moniter setup and dynamics and a driver coach who works as a halfway house between data coaching with camera footage.

The real issue in Renault is the economy. Budgets are about £120k +VAT for the most expensive drives, but at the bottom end of the buaget range they go for £45 k+VAT or less. No team is making good money. We have ended up in a race for the lowest budget. Teams may employe 3 full time staff for example at £30l/year each. So if the drives are not selling at £60k, they will make a loss of at least £90k that season. They can drop them to 5k below cost (lets say coast for a given package id £50k for example) and they then only make a £15k loss. Tough but its either make a loss now and get drivers foe 2013 or dont run and not be on the scene for next year. Thats where we are with it - we cannot, and wont run at an outright loss for anything other than the very best drivers. We offer fully inclusive drives where some others hand out billd for consumables ect that are unexpected by the driver. Thats why you see some drivers dropping out half way. By the time drivers realise that its too late. The bubble will burst, running at a loss is not sustainable for long. But we desperately need to pick things up again. Hey ho...

Flavio Galtieri · 26 Jun 2012, 16:28 (Ref:3098500)

Very informative post.

Thanks!

EastonNeston · 26 Jun 2012, 16:31 (Ref:3098501)

Thank you for your detailed and honest post. It's good for the readers here to see the facts from someone who runs a well presented professional team.

There are many here that would like to remain to some long gone 'golden age' were you ran from a trailer with no awnings etc with just one person working on each car.

You can still run like that in low level clubbie racing, but that will not be competitive in a serious professional series.

Flavio Galtieri · 1 Jul 2012, 09:09 (Ref:3100383)

There's a lot of debate about "aero" and "non aero" cars on other parts of the forum, particularly regarding the possible addition of wings to FF Ecoboost.

Personally I've never thought Formula BMW wings added much downforce, they seem pretty cosmetic to me, and I've always thought they were more or less a fashion accessory, but I wonder if there are any figures on Formula Renault aero packages?

How much downforce is actually produced? Is it from the wings or floor or both. How adjustable is it at high speed tracks like Thruxton, for example? Does it require changes of spring rates/ ride heights at different tracks? How complicated is it to get around for someone coming from, say, Formula Ford?

Peter Cammish · 1 Jul 2012, 14:53 (Ref:3100506)

The current generation FR is a pretty fast car, about 4 seconds off a class B F3 around the new silverstone GP circuit when a FF is around 14 seconds off so there is a big difference in grip as FF is faster than FR on the straight also the FR brakes are better and the tyres yeild a lot more grip,. With regard to the slicks/wings debate its a question of finance if you have a very large budget maybe 2 years in FR is the way if you only have a budget for 1 year in FR dont bother and try to do 2 -3 in FF as chances are you will be retired after Year 1 in FR so I dont think the debate is about Wings its about giving drivers who dont have accident of birth the opportunity to race in a very good championship for sensible money and FF gives that and I for one hope it continues and I think it will, its demise have been predicted for around 20 years!! the only thing for me that is wrong is the tyre it is too durable and the formula was better on the AVON as the "two lap" window is the norm in the higher formula so in that respect I think the series went the wrong way and I dont think it helped costs , it certainly didn help me so I probably would say that... I personally think a FF 2000 championship in Britian would take off and I would like to see it.

FFfan · 1 Jul 2012, 15:16 (Ref:3100519)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Cammish

The current generation FR is a pretty fast car, about 4 seconds off a class B F3 around the new silverstone GP circuit when a FF is around 14 seconds off so there is a big difference in grip as FF is faster than FR on the straight also the FR brakes are better and the tyres yeild a lot more grip,. With regard to the slicks/wings debate its a question of finance if you have a very large budget maybe 2 years in FR is the way if you only have a budget for 1 year in FR dont bother and try to do 2 -3 in FF as chances are you will be retired after Year 1 in FR so I dont think the debate is about Wings its about giving drivers who dont have accident of birth the opportunity to race in a very good championship for sensible money and FF gives that and I for one hope it continues and I think it will, its demise have been predicted for around 20 years!! the only thing for me that is wrong is the tyre it is too durable and the formula was better on the AVON as the "two lap" window is the norm in the higher formula so in that respect I think the series went the wrong way and I dont think it helped costs , it certainly didn help me so I probably would say that... I personally think a FF 2000 championship in Britian would take off and I would like to see it.

Yep; agree with most of what you have said Peter. I firmly believe that ECOboost should have been pitched at what was the old FF2000 market where it would have been very competitive cost wise and Duratec should have been left alone for now as it was doing ok.

I have already commented quite extensivily on this on another website so I don't intend to repeat it all again here but anyone that is interested can read the piece & my comments here http://www.motorsportmusings.co.uk/2...main-wingless/

I've always been a massive fan of FF. My username kind of gives it away so I sincerely hope that Ford see the light and do what is necassary to see the category thrive again.

Dominic Malvern

EastonNeston · 18 Jul 2012, 14:03 (Ref:3108014)

Very interesting to see in the BARC Renault preview release for this weekends race, that James Theodore has joined CDR in place of Trent Hindeman, and Scott Malvern has left CDR.

I'm sure there's a story to be told, from both sides there?

Flavio Galtieri · 18 Jul 2012, 21:04 (Ref:3108193)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

I'm sure there's a story to be told, from both sides there?

I don't know about both sides but I would have thought the big story is Malvern's leading the championship by 21 points against all the odds, so Croft should be very interesting!

EastonNeston · 23 Jul 2012, 00:57 (Ref:3110100)

Two very impressive wins today for MGR's Josh Webster, James Fletcher and David Wagner also had podium finishes driving from MGR.
Kieran Vernon finished second in race one and had a strong drive in race two and James Theodore had two strong finishes on his return to the series with CDR.

Webster is now leading the championship with just the Donington & Silverstone weekends remaining

EastonNeston · 23 Jul 2012, 16:47 (Ref:3110402)

Latest points, after croft, shows Josh Webster is just 7 points behind Malvern, but when the two dropped scores are applied, -11 for Josh &-33 for Malvern, Josh has the net championship lead.

With two meetings & just 4 races left this could go to the last lap! It looks unlikely Seb Morris will challenge for the title after another error prone weekend, and some very dubious overtaking efforts, including taking James Fletcher off at the hairpin on the last lap of race two.

Flavio Galtieri · 23 Jul 2012, 19:24 (Ref:3110475)

Five more races, three at Donington so it should go down to the wire!

EastonNeston · 23 Jul 2012, 19:30 (Ref:3110478)

Donington is going to be a tough weekend for drivers, teams and supporters.

Deemun · 23 Jul 2012, 19:51 (Ref:3110490)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Donington is going to be a tough weekend for drivers, teams and supporters.

Actually Easton there is only one dropped score not two. Webster wouldn't be anywhere near as close had he not run into the back of Malvern in race two at Thruxton and pushed him off! He was lucky to get away with that. He was also lucky to get the safety car at Croft yesterday when he did as Malvern was on him.....oh & lets see Websters first win at Snetteron came about because leader Malvern who was way out in front had a mechanical problem in a car he hadn't even clapped eyes on before the race weekend.

Webster is in his third year in this championship and is running with a professional team. Scott practically ran his own car this weekend and prior to that was with a team brand new to the championship. Scott only received the car back last Tuesday from his former team and spent every evening after that after coming home from his full time day job putting things right and preparing it. On top of that Malvern had never been to either Thruxton or Croft prior to his race weekeends. We all know how much you love Josh (who is a good driver) Easton but get a sense of perspective and start seeing the wood through the trees!!

EastonNeston · 24 Jul 2012, 00:37 (Ref:3110590)

There is no need to descend into personal insults.

One question, why leave a well respected, and very experienced, professional team, especially when the driver concerned had a significant championship lead?

It doesn't seem a logical move.

Deemun · 24 Jul 2012, 04:08 (Ref:3110615)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

There is no need to descend into personal insults.

One question, why leave a well respected, and very experienced, professional team, especially when the driver concerned had a significant championship lead?

It doesn't seem a logical move.

Not quite sure where my remarks are insulting towards you Easton? They are not intended to be! But quite clearly from your history on here you are a fan of Josh Webster (nothing wrong with that) as I am unashamedly of Scott Malvern simply because I am well aware of his personal circumstances and the amount of effort and hard work he has had to put in to keep his race career alive. Sadly as I've said before Scott isn't the only driver or rider in this position and I hate seeing good talent struggle.

As for your question about Scott's change of team you would have to ask him (you were at Croft so had your chance) or someone directly connected with him about that but I think it's most likely a case of " he who pays the piper calls the tune"

EastonNeston · 24 Jul 2012, 06:57 (Ref:3110645)

Points after Croft
Gross score = all points scored Net Score is points with lowest score dropped.

Position Name Gross Net
1 Josh Webster 227 225

2 Malvern 234 223

3 Seb Morris 161 161

4 David Wagner 147 147

5 Macaulay Walsh 144 144

6 James Fletcher 143 143

7 Kieran Vernon 143 143

8 Jake Dalton 125 125

etc

Data taken from official championship points table.

(Provided for information with no comments)

FFfan · 13 Aug 2012, 20:48 (Ref:3119501)

Good write up on the championship in the latest Autosport, by Ben Anderson, explaining why it is so popular at the moment!

Deemun · 20 Aug 2012, 19:50 (Ref:3122244)

Great weekend of racing at Donington. Three races, three different winners! Congratulations to David Wagner for breaking his duck!

Excellent attendance boosted by the fact that it was also the Truck Grand Prix. Are they mad or what? Certainly enetertaining though!

Only two drivers can win the championship now, Scott Malvern & Josh Webster but third place is very much still up for grabs for the next three or four drivers; Wagner, Morris, Walsh & Vernon.

Final two rounds will be at Silverstone at the beginning of October supporting British Touring Cars. See also:

http://www.renaultsport.co.uk/champi...9/Default.aspx

http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/category/open-wheel/

EastonNeston · 21 Aug 2012, 06:36 (Ref:3122406)

For anyone involved in the championship, it's fair to say that the the BTCC is Supporting BARC F Renault :-)

Flavio Galtieri · 21 Aug 2012, 09:34 (Ref:3122449)

What a superb championship this has been this year! The leading UK single seater category by miles and now going down to the wire at the final round on live TV!

I hope Gerhard Berger is watching because I believe it proves definitively that you can run a feeder series that isn't completely filled with the sons and daughters of millionnaires without compromising on professionalism.

I heard or read somewhere a rumour that the BARC were considering changing the Formula for next year? Please tell me that's untrue........

**bella** · 21 Aug 2012, 09:53 (Ref:3122458)

i think the key reason it works is because nobody's worked out how to throw hundreds of thousands of pounds at it yet...

Deemun · 21 Aug 2012, 13:23 (Ref:3122526)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

i think the key reason it works is because nobody's worked out how to throw hundreds of thousands of pounds at it yet...

Some people would like to though. One driver is rumoured to be spending quite a substantial sum which would probably have bought him a seat in Formula Renault UK last year.

There are some parties that would like to see this championship moved full time to the TOCA package next year and in effect that will see it become the UK Championship again; especially if they remove engine restrictors. Whilst I can obviously see that this will give the championship the benefit of a raised profile with TV coverage etc, you cannot help fearing that this will also hike the budgets substantially and we know full well that it's the fact that it is affordable in the current climate that is making it so popular.

As for this years championship I suppose you could have written the script at the start of the season. The very two drivers you'd expect to be fighting over it are now the only ones that can win it. Webster in his third season here was expected to be a favourite but there may have been one or two question marks from some regarding Malvern because he was a Formula Ford specialist and he signed up so late in the day without the benefit of any pre-season testing.

Either way its been a very healthy and popular championship this year and lets hope that any tinkering that may be done for next year is not to its detrement.

Deemun · 27 Sep 2012, 07:57 (Ref:3142371)

Capacity grid of 32 cars expected for the forthcoming season finale at Silverstone including a UK race debut for USA F2000 Champion Matt Brabham, son of Gary & grandson of three times F1 World Champion Sir Jack.

Round 14 on Sunday (the championship decider) will benefit from live UK TV coverage (on ITV4) as part of the BTCC support package.

What an amazing success story this championship has been this season, bucking all trends for UK single seaters, and maintaining grids in the high 20's all year.

http://www.renaultsport.co.uk/champi...5/Default.aspx

Peat · 7 Oct 2012, 14:55 (Ref:3147609)

Congrats Scott Malvern.

I must admit, i had lost interest in the championship after going to rockingham and seeing Seb Morris drive off into the distance.

FFfan, please pass on the congratulations from us tenthers.

FFfan · 7 Oct 2012, 23:29 (Ref:3147917)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peat

Congrats Scott Malvern.

I must admit, i had lost interest in the championship after going to rockingham and seeing Seb Morris drive off into the distance.

FFfan, please pass on the congratulations from us tenthers.

Thanks Peat. Much apprecaited!

All the Best

Team Malvern