Bathurst 1000 - is there something wrong with it?

[Marcos WTF]

1)Less 'safety' cars.

As Alan in the above post observed. WTF not go to a local yellow? As the track is cleared, frods (hopefully) pulled out of the sand trap, dragged onto the tilt tray.

Then a rolling yellow flag as the towtruck hauls (hopefully only frods)
the car away.

They managed it in the 70's- when the coms were probably ex Army VHFs

WTF can't be done with 21st century coms?

2)Bigger fields. A full grid would be great.

3) Less fun police for the spectators.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

1)Less 'safety' cars.

As Alan in the above post observed. WTF not go to a local yellow? As the track is cleared, frods (hopefully) pulled out of the sand trap, dragged onto the tilt tray.

Then a rolling yellow flag as the towtruck hauls (hopefully only frods)
the car away.

They managed it in the 70's- when the coms were probably ex Army VHFs

WTF can't be done with 21st century coms?

.

yes, they used to race with no helmets or seat belts either, but some people got intelligent after their mates started dying, others, it seems, did not

[F J Nedos]

Houston, I repeat. I repeat - "Remove it as a championship round"

And even if you shorten the race, there will still be 30 laps to go at some point, ie.e whether you have completed 130 laps, or 50 laps). So shortening it will not affect the use of a safety car in the last bits to tighten things up.

I like the idea of giving teams the option to run gear ratios and final drive ratios of their own choice. At the end of the day, they all might end up using the same settings - but at least there is a chance of variance / strategy.

Lifting the rev limit would be good, but there would be plenty who would say that the engine is a massively expensive component. Lifting the rev limit might cause a few to snap crackle pop, thus eating in to teams budgets.

I don't see too much wrong with how things are. I thought the last few laps of this year's event were pretty darn good. But ask yourself this - if Bathurst wasn't a round of the championship, would Mr Lowndes (who in reality is one of only two who will take the championship title), have sat back and accepted second? With full knowledge that by accepting second, he opens a nice gap in the championship? Yet if there were no championship thoughts or aspirations, surely he would have had a go...

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by peckstar

yes, they used to race with no helmets or seat belts either, but some people got intelligent after their mates started dying, others, it seems, did not

yet some people still don't believe that racing back to the yellow (read "the pits") is unsafe and that it should be ok to do so.

Why is it good that some advantageous safety measures are brought in, while others equally advantageous safety measures aren't allowed?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by F J Nedos

Houston, I repeat. I repeat - "Remove it as a championship round"

And even if you shorten the race, there will still be 30 laps to go at some point, ie.e whether you have completed 130 laps, or 50 laps). So shortening it will not affect the use of a safety car in the last bits to tighten things up.

I like the idea of giving teams the option to run gear ratios and final drive ratios of their own choice. At the end of the day, they all might end up using the same settings - but at least there is a chance of variance / strategy.

Lifting the rev limit would be good, but there would be plenty who would say that the engine is a massively expensive component. Lifting the rev limit might cause a few to snap crackle pop, thus eating in to teams budgets.

I don't see too much wrong with how things are. I thought the last few laps of this year's event were pretty darn good. But ask yourself this - if Bathurst wasn't a round of the championship, would Mr Lowndes (who in reality is one of only two who will take the championship title), have sat back and accepted second? With full knowledge that by accepting second, he opens a nice gap in the championship? Yet if there were no championship thoughts or aspirations, surely he would have had a go...

I dont really think removing it as a round of the championship would change things.

I am doubtful anything would have changed with lowndes at bathurst, If you think he settled for second because of the championship then you need to have a re-think about how much you know about lowndes

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

yet some people still don't believe that racing back to the yellow (read "the pits") is unsafe and that it should be ok to do so.

Why is it good that some advantageous safety measures are brought in, while others equally advantageous safety measures aren't allowed?

firstly no one races back to the pits, they are not allowed and we saw that at bathurst with cars stuck behind the slow moving whincup

But secondly how is it not safe?

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by peckstar

firstly no one races back to the pits, they are not allowed and we saw that at bathurst with cars stuck behind the slow moving whincup

But secondly how is it not safe?

i'm sorry what??

secondly, i'll take a leaf out of someone else's posts, and rather than provide the proof, direct that it be found by others. Suggest start in here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121442

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119356

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by peckstar

yes, they used to race with no helmets or seat belts either, but some people got intelligent after their mates started dying, others, it seems, did not

Guess whos still bitter about Bathurst?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

i'm sorry what??

secondly, i'll take a leaf out of someone else's posts, and rather than provide the proof, direct that it be found by others. Suggest start in here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121442

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119356

I stand by everything i said, they dont race, they are not allowed, do they go at speed yes, but they dont race, they are not allowed to as shown by cars banking up behind whincup at bathurst.

and it is safe, those threads dont prove otehrwise,

but its ok, you are well on the record for stating you want bathurst to be more predictable and less strategic

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Guess whos still bitter about Bathurst?

I am assuming that is you?

[F J Nedos]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I dont really think removing it as a round of the championship would change things.

I am doubtful anything would have changed with lowndes at bathurst, If you think he settled for second because of the championship then you need to have a re-think about how much you know about lowndes

I know what you are saying about his competitive spirit.

I used him as an example. Which I stand by

Rewind to 1994, when he overtook Mr Bowe on the outside towards the end of the race - for the lead. If he understeered into the ever waiting wall, he wouldn't have damanged any championship.

Cue now.

He drove bloody well, was faster than Tander at the end. He put all sorts of pressure on him. Did all he could to get the lead, without doing a banzai move. It didn't happen. And yes, he'd be a bit peeved by it. But, BUT he also knows that the championship carrot is dangling there and if he did risk it, that carrot would be eaten by one of the many wild rabbits found around Mt Panorama.

He has mentioned many times about the healthy rivalry with his team mate. Putting a championship on him will restore the ledger in his eyes somewhat.

The Lowndes you see nowadays is quick, flamboyant (see the numerous oversteer moments in anything he does!). But he is also experienced and he can mix the flamboyance with knowledge gained by several close championship calls.

I still think a high risk move would have happened at the end of this years bathurst if there were no championship implications associated with that risk. I wouldn't mind betting more of those risks would be taken throughout the whole race. That's just my opinion, and how I would tackle it if it were me driving out there.

[peckstar]

Dont you think we saw that with the pass on Murph though?

I think the reason he didnt pass GT was because he caught him too late and because it was the last lap GT blocked hard and he couldnt get passed, That being said, no doubt he would have got him on turn 1

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Sometimes the Safety Car is needed even if it is the last part of the race.Will Davison in 2010 is a textbook example.However it seems Tim Schenken is often actively looking for reasons to bring it out to close up the field.Watching Le Mans the last 3 years has been a real eye opener to other ways of doing things.There with a field much larger and faster and with much greater disparity in car speed and driver ability/experience than Bathurst incidents that would always bring out the SC at Bathurst are cleaned up under local yellows.This is under the same FIA rules that people are saying are the reason Tim has to flick the switch here.At Bathurst crews down escape roads or behind track openings could clean up all or nearly all incidents at Murray's,Hell,the Chase and the corner at the end of Mountain Straight under local waved double yellows.If they don't think this is possible they should import the Race Director and some marshals from Le Mans.Looking to close up the race for the sake of the show cheapens the event.

You make it sound all too easy Alan...just because there hasn't been a recent Marshal fatality at Le Mans dosen't make it right. Experienced Marshals sometimes cringe at some of the antics there (the I'm waving a yellow flag on-track and I am therefore invincible syndrome). Le Mans is also somewhat different to the mount...a lot less blind spots and the luxury of more straight stretches to adequately warn oncoming drivers and trackside officials.

and ohhhh by the way, where are you getting all these crews from? It might be iconic but it still can suffer from the limited supply of trained, experienced, Marshals that we have here in OZ

[v8man]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I stand by everything i said, they dont race, they are not allowed, do they go at speed yes, but they dont race, they are not allowed to as shown by cars banking up behind whincup at bathurst.

and it is safe, those threads dont prove otehrwise,

but its ok, you are well on the record for stating you want bathurst to be more predictable and less strategic

Why, when you say they don't race back to the pits did Lowndes and Courtney get the bad sportsmanship flag for driving slowly back to the pits so they did not have to queue as long?

[peckstar]

thats not racing though, thats driving at speed (or lack of), why didnt cars go pass them if they were driving so slow, because you are not allowed to race.

Besides its irrelevant to this thread, changing that rule will not make bathurst better, it will make it worse.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ford71

Dammit!!
I knew I should have checked before putting Lowndes down to make the point

But yeah, you got the drift, the 12 hour exists but not in V8SC championship.

Much of this threads seems to want the race removed from the V8 championship and bemoan V8 Supercar eligibility. There appears some form of hang up that the current V8 Supercars HAVE to be included, even though they seem to be the cause of the anti-Bathurst angst.

It's a partially self-defeating argument.

So dump the 1000 from your focus and support the race that embraces what this thread espouses as being good things. On paper it's a no brainer, yet there seems to be ongoing debate.

<Shrugs> Give the people what they want and they'll want something else.

[mountainstar]

I don't think there is a thing wrong with Bathurst.

You watch all the old Group C and A Bathursts and in the context of their time, they were good, but time has moved on, it's 2011. The cars, the professionalism, the drivers and so on have come a long way.

[cdsvg]

Just my opinion:

v8 supercars in general are a total lost cause. The rules approach towards the cars makes the series completely irrelevant other than for casual entertainment viewing. Not to worry though, because if the 12h continues to grow and becomes something akin to VLN, that will become what really matters.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I stand by everything i said, they dont race, they are not allowed, do they go at speed yes, but they dont race, they are not allowed to as shown by cars banking up behind whincup at bathurst.

and it is safe, those threads dont prove otehrwise,

Jamie Whincup, at the 2010 Clipsal 500, running off the race track because he outbraked himself at the hairpin with Tander right on his hammer, while under a safety car....... they weren't racing??

We know they aren't supposed to race, but actions like the above, and the quote from Tander about racing the guys coming out of the pits while under safety car conditions at the November Phillip Island meeting in 2009, show otherwise.

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Much of this threads seems to want the race removed from the V8 championship and bemoan V8 Supercar eligibility. There appears some form of hang up that the current V8 Supercars HAVE to be included, even though they seem to be the cause of the anti-Bathurst angst.

It's a partially self-defeating argument.

So dump the 1000 from your focus and support the race that embraces what this thread espouses as being good things. On paper it's a no brainer, yet there seems to be ongoing debate.

<Shrugs> Give the people what they want and they'll want something else.

Its all well and good to say "go and watch the 12 hour", but i think this thread is more than just about what cars are in the race. Its about the passion for the one weekend in October (..or sometimes November)

An annual 1000km race at Bathurst is an institution, and has been associated with the premier touring car category in the land since 1973, with our leading drivers competing.

Indianapolis is full of similiar tradition (x1000) and history, and when i was there last May there was alot of talk about how the race suffers due to a relative lack of Americans in the race..... should those who want to see US drivers in the Indy 500 just be told "get over it and go to the Brickyard 400"?

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by racer69

Its all well and good to say "go and watch the 12 hour", but i think this thread is more than just about what cars are in the race. Its about the passion for the one weekend in October (..or sometimes November)

An annual 1000km race at Bathurst is an institution, and has been associated with the premier touring car category in the land since 1973, with our leading drivers competing.

Indianapolis is full of similiar tradition (x1000) and history, and when i was there last May there was alot of talk about how the race suffers due to a relative lack of Americans in the race..... should those who want to see US drivers in the Indy 500 just be told "get over it and go to the Brickyard 400"?

The Brickyard 400 only addresses the American driver situation, it doesn't address any of the other long standing complaints.

The 12 Hour addresses almost all complaints. Short of deleting the 1000 as well it would fix the problem, but the 1000 is still there and deleting it would be a huge negative.

I'm not going to say this forum should not be used for people to vent their frustrations with racing, but this forum has long pointed out that there are many many categories (too many) outside of V8s and that they provide answers to many of the disatisfactions. Rather than force changes on V8s who large don't want and can't make the changes highlighted, explore the rest of what motor racing offers.

So as a comparion the shortcomings are as obvious as showing an open wheel fan a 1.5 tonne 7 litre NASCAR and saying, but this is what you asked for.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

1)WTF not go to a local yellow? As the track is cleared, frods (hopefully) pulled out of the sand trap, dragged onto the tilt tray.

Then a rolling yellow flag as the towtruck hauls (hopefully only frods)
the car away.

They managed it in the 70's- when the coms were probably ex Army VHFs

WTF can't be done with 21st century coms?

The reason is drivers do not respect yellow flags any more.

The Development series fatality a few years ago seemed to show that drivers don't treat the track with enough respect in that you really need to slow down for any yellow flag but the drivers just keep on going and they cant risk marshals lives.

Anyone who has worked on a live track or even when the Safety Car is deployed knows it's not a lot of fun, we even had a V8 driver ignore the newly installed red lights all the way around the track at Winton FOR TWO LAPS during the 2010 Test Day and as a result nearly cleaned up three Safety Team members who were removing a car from the turn 3 gravel trap.

Why should we risk our lives for these guys who show us no respect.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by PVDA

The reason is drivers do not respect yellow flags any more.
Why should we risk our lives for these guys who show us no respect.

Perhaps the growing disatisfaction with the V8 thing is tied up in that statement.
It has become "showbiz" rather than sport, and the drivers have become celebities rather than sportsmen.
In many ways not their fault, but the problem is that they don't give much back to the grass roots of the sport that allowed them to develop, and often display little respect for anyone outside the cast of their show.
Maybe if we could get more of the "celebrities" to run the 12hour we could attract more media, money and fan base. Maybe that is putting the cart in front of the horse though.
And it wouldn't be nearly as great a weekend in February if we had to put up with the October crowd.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by cdsvg

Just my opinion:

v8 supercars in general are a total lost cause. The rules approach towards the cars makes the series completely irrelevant other than for casual entertainment viewing. Not to worry though, because if the 12h continues to grow and becomes something akin to VLN, that will become what really matters.

And is the VLN bigger than the DTM in Germany? No.

I mean it might attract some niche interest, but not the casual fan or the average middle class people.

The Bathurst 12 hour gets 5000-10000 spectators and the 1000 gets around 100,000, so I think it's a long way off for your theory to be realized.

Only in the past 2 weeks have I been able to catch up with this years races and the racing in V8SC has been really good, especially the wet races in Adelaide and Hamilton.

To be a commercial success, you have to be entertaining and personally if I am going to sit down and watch motor racing, it better be damned good and entertaining to watch. I get most of my jollies from driving myself, so if I am going to have to sit and watch other drivers go at it themselves, it needs to be really good racing. I just don't have hours of time to waste to watch complete boredom and drivel.

V8SC puts out a great product which is reflected in their capacity crowds and growth, as well as commercial success. Motorsport is a legitimate industry now in Australia with thousands of people employed directly or indirectly and a huge growth in the number of categories and cars out there competing below V8SC. The size of the industry is at least 10 times the size it was in 1993 in terms of revenue and employment.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Perhaps the growing disatisfaction with the V8 thing is tied up in that statement.
It has become "showbiz" rather than sport, and the drivers have become celebities rather than sportsmen.
In many ways not their fault, but the problem is that they don't give much back to the grass roots of the sport that allowed them to develop, and often display little respect for anyone outside the cast of their show.
Maybe if we could get more of the "celebrities" to run the 12hour we could attract more media, money and fan base. Maybe that is putting the cart in front of the horse though.
And it wouldn't be nearly as great a weekend in February if we had to put up with the October crowd.

Go back 20 years and look at the "grassroots" series and it was completely sparse. Almost nothing else out there had any commercial backing or support. You had formula ford, sports sedans, HQ Holdens, the Porsche series and that was about it and almost none of it had any commercial backing behind it.

Now you've got the developmental V8SC series, V8 Utes, Carrera Cup, Australian GT, Touring Car Masters, etc. All of which have some level of commercial backing. Then you've got the Shannon Nationals below that and all the associated series. Then there is the IRC. Then you've got all sorts of state level series and club racing.

I think V8SC has given heaps back to the sport by creating a business where as a driver, engineer, mechanic, team owner, etc you can actually have a real job in Australia and not have to go overseas. It's raised the game in the industry big time and it's forced the tracks to update and modernize and improve their presentation. It's also developed talent and products that have been able to be exported as well, the Weel's radiator business is a good example of that.

Why people want to go back to the days when almost no professional industry existed in Australia and 5000 people turned up to Group A ATCC races is beyond me.

[peckstar]

ouch

Both Barrels