Group A BMW M3 E30 - General info and history - Page 6

ian beckett · 11 Dec 2008, 11:38 (Ref:2352546)

The second Mcguire car was the ex-Bastos car #75(?) which had raced afew weeks earlier at Spa.The SDA cars were from the French championship and this deal was a one off.

**chunterer** · 11 Dec 2008, 11:42 (Ref:2352554)

An ex Prodrive car then?

KA · 11 Dec 2008, 12:06 (Ref:2352575)

Thanks Ian-

Racing Services International, or something like that?
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-075.jpg

Think there were two distinct varieties of Bastos-backed M3?- Prodrive fielded a pair at Spa (and a single car at a couple of other rounds), and RSI ran one for Bretislav Enge, Denny Vojtech etc

**chunterer** · 11 Dec 2008, 12:21 (Ref:2352585)

Actually KA, I think you or someone elase discovered earlier that the Maguire car was a Czech sourced car.

Didn't know it was a Bastos/Spa car though!

ian beckett · 11 Dec 2008, 12:28 (Ref:2352591)

The Mcguire car was ex-RSI;note that at Silverstone Zdenek Vojtech was down to drive the black and yellow car.

KA · 11 Dec 2008, 12:34 (Ref:2352601)

OK, I'll have a go at trying to detail the main ETCC M3 entries for 1988. I'll start with the official BMW-backed cars:

Schnitzer- full-season, 2, occasionally 3 cars- Ravaglia, van de Poele and various combinations of Fabien Giroix, Emanuele Pirro, Altfrid Heger, Markus Oestreich, Dieter Quester, Ellen Lohr
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-056.jpg
Bigazzi- full-season, again 2, sometimes 3 cars: Jacques Laffite & Olivier Grouillard backed up by varying combinations of Winni Vogt, Mark Thatcher and the Martin brothers. Cars backed by Max Meyer, or in black Lease Plan colours at Spa
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-051.jpg

Linder- just a single car at Spa- Lohr/Schmickler/Bartels
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-074.jpg

I'll do the privateers seperately- there were a lot of them....

**chunterer** · 11 Dec 2008, 12:35 (Ref:2352602)

Thanks ian, KA had guessed right!!

Yes that car did the TT and then the last 2-3 BTCC rounds in Sears' hands. David Sears and Maguire were quite close to Andy for various reasons IIRC.

I've always had this notion that it was a stealth Rouse entry to try and take points off of Sytner in the battle for the championship.....

We'll never get that confirmed though!!

KA · 11 Dec 2008, 12:52 (Ref:2352611)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Thanks ian, KA had guessed right!!

Yes that car did the TT and then the last 2-3 BTCC rounds in Sears' hands. David Sears and Maguire were quite close to Andy for various reasons IIRC.

I've always had this notion that it was a stealth Rouse entry to try and take points off of Sytner in the battle for the championship.....

We'll never get that confirmed though!!

Now there's a thought....

Frank had enough trouble with his team-mate doing that at times- remember the famous Snetterton 'Smithy nicking the point for fastest lap after pitting for slicks' incident?

From memory Prodrive fielded a third car for Will Hoy at some of the late season BTCC rounds to help Sytner's championship situation-

ian beckett · 11 Dec 2008, 13:11 (Ref:2352630)

At round 8 Hoy was 9th o/a,3rd in class,at round 9 he was 10th o/a 2nd in class with a rally spec engine fitted,at round 10 Lionel Abbott ran the third car but retired after having started;at Donington round11 Weaver replaced Smith who had been injured in a helicopter crashand was 12th o/a, 2nd in class and the third car ran for Abbott,15th 0/a 5th in class.Sytner won the championship with 103 points,Smith was 5th with 40.

KA · 11 Dec 2008, 13:19 (Ref:2352640)

Back to the '88 ETC....

We've already covered Prodrive- appeared at a few rounds in two different guises- either the BTCC Mobil 1 cars at Donington and the TT, or Bastos cars at Dijon and Spa
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-069.jpg

There were a lot of privateers, several of which did fairly full seasons. The regulars included:

Autohaus Wollstadt- the distinctive red car did much of the season with team boss Johannes Wollstadt partnered by Heinz Wirth or Willi Hatje
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-060.jpg

AMK- Czech entry for Oldrich Vanicek/Vlastimil Tomacek
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-059.jpg

Herba Proficraft Tools- Milos Bychl's car was another regular
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-055.jpg

Camac- Spanish squad fielded an M3 and a baby-class Corolla for much of the season
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-17-063.jpg

Luigi Bello- Swiss entry, often shared with Claude Haldi
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-065.jpg

Herbert Lingmann- white car seen a quite a few rounds
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-073.jpg

Kuelker- Josef Cserkuti's Hungarian car was seen at several rounds- Mainly in the first half of the season I think?
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-03-27-064.jpg

Garage du Bac- 2 cars at Spa, plus the French rounds.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-071.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-071.jpg

SDA Sport we've already mentioned- Spa, Dijon, Nogaro plus the John Clark TT deal, sometimes 2 cars
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-080.jpg
RSI's Bastos car had a couple of starts in addition to Spa I think?

Some more less-regular/one-off appearances, in addition to the TT entries from John Maguire we've already covered:

Willy Maljean- A distinctive black car at Spa
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-076.jpg

BMW Nederland- Dutch Dealer Team car turned up at Donington- Was it seen anywhere else in the series?
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-17-068.jpg

Mirabeau? Jabouille/Bleynie at Dijon
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-082.jpg

I'm sure there were plenty more though....

KA · 11 Dec 2008, 13:21 (Ref:2352643)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

At round 8 Hoy was 9th o/a,3rd in class,at round 9 he was 10th o/a 2nd in class with a rally spec engine fitted,at round 10 Lionel Abbott ran the third car but retired after having started;at Donington round11 Weaver replaced Smith who had been injured in a helicopter crashand was 12th o/a, 2nd in class and the third car ran for Abbott,15th 0/a 5th in class.Sytner won the championship with 103 points,Smith was 5th with 40.

Thanks Ian- I'd forgotten about Smith's helicopter crash, and Lionel Abbott's couple of M3 outings

Jesper OH · 11 Dec 2008, 19:48 (Ref:2352978)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

BMW Nederland- Dutch Dealer Team car turned up at Donington- Was it seen anywhere else in the series?
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-17-068.jpg

Arthur van Dedem and Jeffrey Van Hooydonk appeared for the final round at Nogaro, but no entrant mentioned at Franks site: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...%20Nogaro.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

I'm sure there were plenty more though....

Not a lot, though! Returning for the Nogaro race we'll find Portugeses Rodrigues/Rodrigues/Mendes in another M3. No first names known to me, but if anyone knows, it would be helpfull.
http://circuitoviladoconde.com.sapo.pt/1988.htm has results from Portugese races at Vila do Conde, naming both a Carlos and a Pedro Rodrigues, but both racing Ford Sierras!

Otherwise I haven't found any other M3s from Frank de Jongs 1988 ETCC pages.

Jesper

I have found

**chunterer** · 11 Dec 2008, 20:38 (Ref:2353002)

That's strange but I thought there was quite a few privateer M3's in '88 Jesper?

At the Silverstone TT there were a few more besides the works and British entries that KA referred to a few posts ago?

I haven't consulted the entry list but i'm sure there were definitely additional white cars and red cars

Jesper OH · 11 Dec 2008, 22:05 (Ref:2353066)

http://www.racingsportscars.com/cove...988-09-04e.jpg

The TT division 2 entrylist seems a little thin on European mainland entries except for the factory Bigazzi and Schnitzer cars:
#55 Herba
#60 Wollstadt
#61 Bohemia Crystal - a DNA?
#65 Bello
and the French M3 or was it M3s in British hands.

Besides, I still think KA's list was a long one, and about a dozen of them appearing at most rounds.

Jesper

Jesper OH · 11 Dec 2008, 22:20 (Ref:2353080)

http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto...ujet378317.htm

Pictures from hill climbing, with lots of M3s - some looks quite familiar to ETCC racing.

Jesper

ian beckett · 12 Dec 2008, 09:29 (Ref:2353324)

What a wonderful site,many thanks for finding it Jesper!

KA · 12 Dec 2008, 10:37 (Ref:2353352)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto...ujet378317.htm

Pictures from hill climbing, with lots of M3s - some looks quite familiar to ETCC racing.

Jesper

Not just M3s either- I think there's something in that thread relevant to almost every Group A thread we've done so far-

The only things I haven't seen are Starions, Skylines and Rovers....

As you said, some of those M3s look very familiar from the ETCC....

A couple that immediately stood out-
Josef Cserkuti's car from Hungary- seen in the WTCC/ETCC in 1987/8
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...87cserkuti.jpg
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...88cserkuti.jpg
Assuming Cserkuti kept the same car in both seasons, I guess this is the famous M3 that wasn't DQ'd at Monza in '87....

The Durig car in 1988- that paintjob looks very familiar- looks like an ex-CiBiEmme '87 season car?
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...ers88durig.jpg

Jesper OH · 16 Dec 2008, 06:04 (Ref:2355735)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

The Durig car in 1988- that paintjob looks very familiar- looks like an ex-CiBiEmme '87 season car?
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...ers88durig.jpg

The '87 Bathurst CiBiEmme M3 was either already in the hands of Kiwi Mark Petch or about to be, when it raced at Mount Panorama that year. A year later at Bathurst it was in the ownership of Bill Bryce.

If the above is so, there's the chance that the Dürig car in the link is in fact the #48 Spa 24h and Silverstone TT-winner, pending on that only two CiBiEmme M3s ever existed in the first place - and I don't know about!

Jesper

KA · 16 Dec 2008, 09:40 (Ref:2355835)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

The '87 Bathurst CiBiEmme M3 was either already in the hands of Kiwi Mark Petch or about to be, when it raced at Mount Panorama that year. A year later at Bathurst it was in the ownership of Bill Bryce.

If the above is so, there's the chance that the Dürig car in the link is in fact the #48 Spa 24h and Silverstone TT-winner, pending on that only two CiBiEmme M3s ever existed in the first place - and I don't know about!

Jesper

I've got a vague feeling I've read somewhere that CiBiEmme used more than two cars over the course of the season, but I can't remember where I read it...

Apart from the extra sponsor's logos, Durig's car is definitely wearing the CiBiEmme colours though...
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...ers88durig.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-06-048.jpg

**chunterer** · 16 Dec 2008, 10:36 (Ref:2355880)

So this suggests CiBiEmme built or at least had 3 cars during 1987?

Speaking of the TT remember that Bigazzi car that Grouillard drove, it had all kinds of different panels on it after a monumental shunt in practice if I recall?

Think Prodrive 'lent' them some Rothmans wings or something?

Now that'd be a car for the serious model collector!!

ian beckett · 16 Dec 2008, 14:53 (Ref:2356126)

It was Bigazzi whose car at Silverstone in '87 ran in the race with the front half of their car clothed in Rothmans/Prodrive borrowed panels after a big practice crash.During the '87 WTCC and ETCC season,CiBiEmme ran two M3's at all rounds apart rom Anderstorp where neither car ran and atFuji where they ran just one car and that leased from Linder.The lead car was initially white with blue diagonal flashes on the sides and the second car being white.The cars were not particularly well sponsored having different backers at most races.At Spa both cars were black with white lower bodywork and backing from Belgian company Lease Plan.It is possible that the cars were not sprayed black but it was a type of Fablon which was heat shrunk over the cars in much the same way that Porsche 956/962's would regularly change colours during a season?At Bathurst the lead car was back to its white/blue livery with the second car now in Schnitzer/BMW colours and backed by Compac Computers.At Wellington it was in the same colours backed by Lockwood.Mark Petch who had sponsored the lead car at Bathurst/Calder and possibly Wellington then bought this car and it remained 'down under'.A second car was probably also sold to an Australian or New Zealand team and the third car was the one that brought up this latest debate being sold to Durig who we saw in the St.Ursanne website this week.Durig was a Swiss BMW dealer who probably only raced as a hobby which is why the car was not seen regularly. Ian.

KA · 16 Dec 2008, 16:20 (Ref:2356201)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

So this suggests CiBiEmme built or at least had 3 cars during 1987?

Speaking of the TT remember that Bigazzi car that Grouillard drove, it had all kinds of different panels on it after a monumental shunt in practice if I recall?

Think Prodrive 'lent' them some Rothmans wings or something?

Now that'd be a car for the serious model collector!!

Bigazzi's car with Rothmans panels....
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-06-043.jpg

The Bigazzi M3 changed colourscheme a couple of times over the season- it had Marlboro sponsorship for a couple of early season races, then went white/blue for the bulk of the season...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-043.jpg
....and finally, if I remember correctly, plain white at Bathurst?

KA · 16 Dec 2008, 16:31 (Ref:2356218)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

It was Bigazzi whose car at Silverstone in '87 ran in the race with the front half of their car clothed in Rothmans/Prodrive borrowed panels after a big practice crash.During the '87 WTCC and ETCC season,CiBiEmme ran two M3's at all rounds apart rom Anderstorp where neither car ran and atFuji where they ran just one car and that leased from Linder.The lead car was initially white with blue diagonal flashes on the sides and the second car being white.The cars were not particularly well sponsored having different backers at most races.At Spa both cars were black with white lower bodywork and backing from Belgian company Lease Plan.It is possible that the cars were not sprayed black but it was a type of Fablon which was heat shrunk over the cars in much the same way that Porsche 956/962's would regularly change colours during a season?At Bathurst the lead car was back to its white/blue livery with the second car now in Schnitzer/BMW colours and backed by Compac Computers.At Wellington it was in the same colours backed by Lockwood.Mark Petch who had sponsored the lead car at Bathurst/Calder and possibly Wellington then bought this car and it remained 'down under'.A second car was probably also sold to an Australian or New Zealand team and the third car was the one that brought up this latest debate being sold to Durig who we saw in the St.Ursanne website this week.Durig was a Swiss BMW dealer who probably only raced as a hobby which is why the car was not seen regularly. Ian.

I think you could well be right about the Spa livery change being done with Fablon rather than paint- CiBiEmme's pair of 635s which continued mostly in the ETCC also carried the Lease Plan colours at Spa, otherwise running in the white/blue scheme like the 'lead' M3- seems unlikely they'd have repainted 4 cars just for Spa and then returned them to the original colourschemes.

Lease Plan M3:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-042.jpg

and, slightly OT, the 635s in regular and Spa warpaint:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-05-019.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-018.jpg

As you said, the second-string #48 car was plain white initially, with sponsors changing race-to-race....

Donington ETC: http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-05-048.jpg
Dijon: http://lemansmotorsport.free.fr/dijo...gra87%2048.jpg

..but was in the 'regular' white/blue colours by the time of the TT, if not before...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-06-048.jpg

KA · 16 Dec 2008, 16:41 (Ref:2356223)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

Bigazzi's car with Rothmans panels....
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-06-043.jpg

The Bigazzi M3 changed colourscheme a couple of times over the season- it had Marlboro sponsorship for a couple of early season races, then went white/blue for the bulk of the season...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-043.jpg
....and finally, if I remember correctly, plain white at Bathurst?

Forgot to link the pic! Bigazzi M3 in Marlboro colours at Dijon- think the Marlboro backing was only for a couple of rounds- Jarama and Dijon?
http://lemansmotorsport.free.fr/dijo...onga870023.jpg

KA · 16 Dec 2008, 16:50 (Ref:2356228)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

During the '87 WTCC and ETCC season,CiBiEmme ran two M3's at all rounds apart rom Anderstorp where neither car ran and atFuji where they ran just one car and that leased from Linder..

Just noticed this- I won't swear to it, but I think the '87 Bathurst annual suggests the second CiBiEmme car at Bathurst (the Brabham/Fangio 'Compaq' car) was also the leased Linder chassis. I'll have a look and see what the book says, although the account of the BMW entries in it is slightly confusing at one point....I've got a feeling it might also claim that the 'Ladies' car of Meeuvissen/Stermitz was another 'borrowed' car, rather than the Schnitzer car they'd used in Europe

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