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Old 6 Sep 2017, 09:21 (Ref:3764898)   #801
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Originally Posted by newlaprecord View Post
I really dont understand how on earth Mclaren think that a premature end to the Honda deal would make any sense whatsoever.

1. Canceling the deal 2 years early has an estimated pricetag of 80mil EUR (according to AS Spain)

2. Honda's contribution to Mclaren's budget is understood to be around 90mil EUR a year (Alonso's salery, complete free of charge engines with full support and some sponsorship)

3. There is evidently no engine on the market that could be significantly better (let alone 95 mil a year! better) than Honda

4. Of course its getting harder to believe every year, but Honda is no joke in the game, and there is still a chance they can crack this nut during the following 2 years

I would instead get rid of Alonso (as he is getting way too loud for Japanese etiquette) and let Honda channel that 40mil a year back to their engine development. Get a guy like Perez who has the speed and the experience, and probably just as hungry to prove himself elsewhere as Vettel was after his year with hotshoe Ricciardo. Give him a huge bonus but minimum salery deal, take his sponsors onboard and make sure that the communication / work relation with Honda is restored to a healthy standard.

How is this not the best option?
I must say that I agree with almost all of this, it certainly sounds like the best option to me (although I have finally started to Like Alonso this year so would be sad to see him go).
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 10:01 (Ref:3764904)   #802
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Perez has not done himself any favour this year with his petulance with Ocon and for me his stock has fallen as a result, costing the team points. No team would want that, and let's be fair the only reason he is there is primarily money.

And if you remember at times he was hardly a saint in his first time at McLaren. With his team-mate.

There has still been no announcement, so I would imagine it is a very difficult decision with all sorts of cost implications.

Getting rid of Nando would be idiotic, it is clear he still has the drive and speed, some of what he still does is staggering. And the PR they got from him being at Indy is the kind of thing dreams are made of.

I don't think he wants to go anywhere, likely as he has few choices. But getting rid of him would be stupid.

Give him a decent engine and you know that he would be up there most of the time.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 13:29 (Ref:3764939)   #803
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Checo still has the talent, but has hardly helped himself with off track attitude with Ocon. He might have kissed his second chance goodbye
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 13:42 (Ref:3764943)   #804
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I would be amazed if there wasn't some sort of performance clause in the contract that would allow McLaren to walk away from the deal cost free.

If not they seriously need to look at the people responsible for drawing up the contracts.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 13:47 (Ref:3764945)   #805
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Checo still has the talent, but has hardly helped himself with off track attitude with Ocon. He might have kissed his second chance goodbye
I keep remembering him saying "don't judge me on my one year with McLaren (I think it was them), judge me on the driver I am now", or similar quotes. Well..... He's kind of lost that script now.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 15:29 (Ref:3764966)   #806
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Originally Posted by newlaprecord View Post
I really dont understand how on earth Mclaren think that a premature end to the Honda deal would make any sense whatsoever.

1. Canceling the deal 2 years early has an estimated pricetag of 80mil EUR (according to AS Spain)

2. Honda's contribution to Mclaren's budget is understood to be around 90mil EUR a year (Alonso's salery, complete free of charge engines with full support and some sponsorship)

3. There is evidently no engine on the market that could be significantly better (let alone 95 mil a year! better) than Honda

4. Of course its getting harder to believe every year, but Honda is no joke in the game, and there is still a chance they can crack this nut during the following 2 years

I would instead get rid of Alonso (as he is getting way too loud for Japanese etiquette) and let Honda channel that 40mil a year back to their engine development. Get a guy like Perez who has the speed and the experience, and probably just as hungry to prove himself elsewhere as Vettel was after his year with hotshoe Ricciardo. Give him a huge bonus but minimum salery deal, take his sponsors onboard and make sure that the communication / work relation with Honda is restored to a healthy standard.

How is this not the best option?
I think in the words of Donald Rumsfeld, 'there are known, knowns and known unknowns' and I think this is where McLaren are with Honda. The knowns are that after 3 years the engine is going nowhere, even Renault itself which has had a poor season and only one performing driver, has scored 3 times the points McLaren has with both cars.

The known, unknowns are the hope Honda will do next year and without a crystal ball who knows? Logic would say that after enduring all the pain, McLaren could hand over what might turn out to be a great engine next year, to another team that reaps the benefit with little downside.

BUT...I don't think ZB is a believer in crystal balls, he needs and wants results now. He has zero chance of getting new partners and sponsors. Soon key staff will get disheartended and move on, this could keep McLaren in decline for years.

RD's championship aspriations are long gone, so the argument that you can't win with a customer engine is null and void. McLaren is at the point now where it just wants to be able to compete. ZB will take strong points finishes and maybe the odd podium over what they have now.

Sure it may be expensive, but that is an even greater argument to break from Honda as at the moment, they are too reliant on them both as a sponsor and an engine, so what happens if Honda decides to walk? McLaren loses it's major funder and engine and is on the floor competing wise.

This is also a short term gap fill for McLaren as I am pretty sure they will build their own engine under the new regs, probably with Cosworth.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 17:31 (Ref:3764985)   #807
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Alonso is good, but I don't believe he's delivering results which are justified by the premium he's being paid. Other drivers would do almost as well for vastly less money.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 18:08 (Ref:3764995)   #808
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Alonso is good, but I don't believe he's delivering results which are justified by the premium he's being paid. Other drivers would do almost as well for vastly less money.
It doesn't matter. That is the deal they all agreed.

Who would do a better job than he has managed in such a poor car other than Hamilton?!
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 18:20 (Ref:3765001)   #809
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It doesn't matter. That is the deal they all agreed.

Who would do a better job than he has managed in such a poor car other than Hamilton?!
Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen would be as good. Who would do almost as good a job for buttons? Sainz, Ocon, Button.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 18:22 (Ref:3765005)   #810
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Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen would be as good. Who would do almost as good a job for buttons? Sainz, Ocon, Button.
Vettel? Nah.
Ricciardo, Verstappen wouldn't even be available let alone want to go there.

Sainz, Ocon quick but nowhere near the strategy or feedback skills as Alonso.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the last named 😉
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 18:23 (Ref:3765006)   #811
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Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen would be as good. Who would do almost as good a job for buttons? Sainz, Ocon, Button.
Possibly. Possibly not. There is absolutely no way of telling unless one of them gets the 'opportunity'......
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 18:32 (Ref:3765011)   #812
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Possibly. Possibly not. There is absolutely no way of telling unless one of them gets the 'opportunity'......
Do Honda have any vested interest in Vandoorne?
They're getting a good comparison and benchmark for him at the moment.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 19:58 (Ref:3765036)   #813
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Do Honda have any vested interest in Vandoorne?
They're getting a good comparison and benchmark for him at the moment.
Vandoorne is a McLaren driver, not a Honda driver.
Honda was helping him out (in Super Formula) because he was contracted to McLaren and they didn't have a race seat for him.

Likewise they (Honda) are doing that this year for Gasly. Not entirely sure why. Probably because Red Bull had no place for him either and just followed the path set by McLaren.
(Not sure why they turned to Honda and not Toyota though)

Gasly - Torro Rosso - Honda would not be that big a surprise then, especially if Sainz would be used as exchange money for the broken Torro Rosso - Renault contract.


If you want a Honda driver, you need to look at Matsushita (GP2) or Fukuzumi (GP3)
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 21:55 (Ref:3765061)   #814
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Vandoorne is a McLaren driver, not a Honda driver.
Honda was helping him out (in Super Formula) because he was contracted to McLaren and they didn't have a race seat for him.

Likewise they (Honda) are doing that this year for Gasly. Not entirely sure why. Probably because Red Bull had no place for him either and just followed the path set by McLaren.
(Not sure why they turned to Honda and not Toyota though)

Gasly - Torro Rosso - Honda would not be that big a surprise then, especially if Sainz would be used as exchange money for the broken Torro Rosso - Renault contract.


If you want a Honda driver, you need to look at Matsushita (GP2) or Fukuzumi (GP3)
That.... Is gonna be an interesting one to hear pronounced occasionally....
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 08:50 (Ref:3765144)   #815
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Vettel? Nah.
Yea, that totally makes sense. After all Vettel has only scored 1.5 points more EVERY single race he had with Ferrari (53 up til now) than Alonso did in his first 53 with the same team. (And won from pole with customer engine junior team in Monza) ... so there is literally nothing to suggest he could do the same job as Alonso, you are nail on the head with that one.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 09:24 (Ref:3765150)   #816
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Perez has not done himself any favour this year with his petulance with Ocon and for me his stock has fallen as a result, costing the team points.
Yea I agree, his stock has fallen this year, there is no two way about it, he didnt really handle the Ocon battle well (in fact it reminded me a bit of Tyson bitting Holyfield's ear off, and later explaining the reason why as "he was just so annoyingly good")

Looking from another point of view though, the reason why he has this battle with Ocon, is because he is just as quick. Hardly any duo will post so constantly identical laps from FP1 onwards as these two, so of course they always end up fighting for the same piece of asphalt (just last weekend Ocon knocked him out by 0.002 from Q3...)

So if in theory is, that Ocon is a Verstappen level talent entering the sport (and it certainly does seem to me that way, speed- and especially racecraft-wise) then Perez -despite his hissy-fits- really not looking that bad at all. Plus he:

1. put his businesscard on the table with extraordinary tire managing skills and amazing underdog races at Sauber

2. fair and square outscored Hulkenberg in 3 years straight

3. put Force India on the podium EVERY single year (compared to never at all in Hulkenberg's case in his 3 year stint)

4. finished his seasons always at the highest possible rank, right behind the top team's racers.

These all suggest that he is more than capable of squeezing the max out of a wide range of scenarios (car,setup,race situations) and probably the cheapest point per buck driver on the grid. Im not saying he is Alonso, but I do see him scoring very near in Alonso's leauge, only the price of every point is 90% off this sunday

If you say getting rid of Alonso would be "idiotic" , I say keeping him at 40mil a year is idiotic. Especially as he is a toxic character to be around when things dont go well. He poisoned Ferrari with his attitude and he clearly does the same at Mclaren now...ironically enough, not even the first time around (threating your your own team with severve legal charges, just for daring to employ a super fast guy ... calling independent fia "cops" to your team's garage , because your teammate dared to qualify 0,8 ahead anyone???)
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 10:06 (Ref:3765158)   #817
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I don't think McLaren feel Nando is toxic. I have never heard of any of those incidents, but I admit I do not follow f1 that closely anymore.

Paying a driver a ton of money is the same as paying 200 million for Neymar.

You do it as that is what the market and his agents dictate. McLaren and Honda felt it was a risk worth taking and Honda have simply failed to deliver, has Nando? I think most fans would say he has done as well as he could in pathetic circumstances.

But you also do it because you are getting a top level driver, probably the best (though we don't know anymore).

And I still believe than Nando can get you a result from nothing more than any other driver on the grid.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 21:04 (Ref:3765259)   #818
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2. fair and square outscored Hulkenberg in 3 years straight
There is far more to it than that though isn't there, Hulkenberg outscored him in 2014, Perez had 3 retirements to Hulkenbergs 2. 2015 Perez outscored Hulk, Perez 1 retirement, Hulk 5. 2016 Perez again outscored Hulk, Perez 0 retirements, Hulk 4. Some no doubt mechanical, some self inflicted, also as i recall, Perez really lucked in strategy wise in 2016 with the long first stint on more than one occasion, Monaco being a prime example where he ended up on the podium after being well out qualified by Hulkenberg. I am not for a minute saying Perez is a bad driver, just think circumstance statistically gave him the edge over Hulkenberg and he is being found out a little against Ocon.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 21:42 (Ref:3765264)   #819
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I don't think McLaren feel Nando is toxic. I have never heard of any of those incidents, but I admit I do not follow f1 that closely anymore.

Paying a driver a ton of money is the same as paying 200 million for Neymar.

You do it as that is what the market and his agents dictate. McLaren and Honda felt it was a risk worth taking and Honda have simply failed to deliver, has Nando? I think most fans would say he has done as well as he could in pathetic circumstances.

But you also do it because you are getting a top level driver, probably the best (though we don't know anymore).

And I still believe than Nando can get you a result from nothing more than any other driver on the grid.
Alonso must also have thought it was a risk worth taking, he's still there. Though one could cynically argue, it's the pay check that's keeping him there.

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Old 7 Sep 2017, 22:38 (Ref:3765275)   #820
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it is a pretty big pay check and frankly Alonso doesnt have many places to go.

i wouldnt go so far as saying he is toxic but his options are limited.

personally i would like to see him go to Williams as that could be a truly inspired choice all be it a choice with a much smaller pay check.

the guy has bad luck with his choices though...but is it fair to say that regardless of whose engine Mclaren have next year they will still struggle?

rather, do they have enough time to properly develop a 2018 car around a new engine? will they even be able to fund a late/expedited build process?
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 07:29 (Ref:3765338)   #821
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All quiet on the McLaren Honda divorce, does that mean they are staying together or is there a Honda Torro Rosso deal about to be announced?
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 07:43 (Ref:3765340)   #822
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On another note, the deadline that I mentioned HERE, is apparently only a few hours away. What then for McLaren?
How many hours away was the deadline?

Are we past that point and have a new deadline?

The commentary at Monza referred to Tuesday, which has come and gone with no announcement - It seems that the 'what then' is to carry on as they are and live with Honda for a bit longer?
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 09:25 (Ref:3765357)   #823
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perhaps the relative (kind of) equal pace of the Torro-Rossos versus Mclaren at monza/spa makes them realise they may as well stick with Honda

Also no surprises on the 2021 engine front......McLaren considering doing their own motor.......long overdue if you ask me

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131695/mclaren-open-to-building-own-engine-for-2021
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 09:26 (Ref:3765358)   #824
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I reckon that's their best chance building their own engine, if Honda can't get their act together like they used to
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 09:38 (Ref:3765363)   #825
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perhaps the relative (kind of) equal pace of the Torro-Rossos versus Mclaren at monza/spa makes them realise they may as well stick with Honda

Also no surprises on the 2021 engine front......McLaren considering doing their own motor.......long overdue if you ask me

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131695/mclaren-open-to-building-own-engine-for-2021
The recent comments from Zak suggest that they are ready to sacrifice performance in the short term to concentrate on future options. 3 more years of Honda money might be plowed into an engine of their own if the new regulations appear suitable.
Will this see Ferrari / Mercedes push for complicated engines if they want to force McLaren into a difficult situation?
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Winton can’t compete with richer raceways...... retro Australasian Touring Cars. 28 25 Jul 2006 00:33
Can Button Compete with the Likes of Kimi And Alonso marzF1rocks Formula One 22 31 Mar 2006 11:59
Kimi Raikkonen and McLaren - can they continue their current form? Yoong Montoya Formula One 23 1 May 2003 00:26
Can the Pilbeam compete with the Reynard and the MG Lola? H16 Sportscar & GT Racing 8 27 Jan 2003 16:51


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