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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:16 (Ref:2939826)   #1
deadsquirrel
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Marshals input to race licence?

At the MSVR meeting at Donington over the weekend we witnessed certain driver behaviour that was less than ideal and caused unnecessary delays/yellow flags etc to the racing.

We had a Lotus deposit the rear half of his car into our gravel trap at Coppice. Since he was grounded by his chassis, we could not move him with available manpower. Since it was last lap, there was no need to snatch.
What was surprising was the drivers reactions and behviour - he was an utterly amiable chap, but he'd never been 'off track' before. He stayed in the car until we got to him (which is good) but had floored the throttle and sunk in the gravel (which is bad). He listened to us as we tried to push him out, but we couldn't move him. As I asked him to join us on post, he turned the car off (with ignition key) and got out, putting key in his pocket (which was bad!) - I got him to put it back in the barrel. (We could not have snatched him with steering lock on!)

On post, it became clear he'd never been told how to deal with this situation (or presumably something worse).

We also had quite a few cars who were limping back to the pits (often with no chance of making it - something the drivers didn't seem to want to accept) and ended up conking out trackside or just off the track in dangerous places.

This meeting in particular had a large number of drivers who are starting out their racing and would IMO benefit the most from no more than 30 minutes in their race school program to discuss the above two issues and maybe a _few_ more similar items .

So what would we have on the list? My two for starters are:

1. What to do when you get 'stuck' off track - in gravel/tyres, etc.
2. What to do when you're car is damaged and may stop at any moment.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:26 (Ref:2939833)   #2
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I don't think there were any Lotus drivers that hadn't raced before? Many drivers rarely go off track and so when it does happen it is somewhat alien to them and therefore they are out of their normal comfort zone which is why we need to be gentle and reassuring with them. I always try to explain to drivers why we do certain things and the implications for them and their car were we to do it differently, most are appreciative of what we do and will stand and chat. A great deal of drivers have never been on a marshals post until then and do learn from their time with us.

I think that most drivers will try to get their car back to the paddock under their own steam as it gives them greater time to work on the car for those days when they might have more than one race.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:35 (Ref:2939837)   #3
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I don't think there were any Lotus drivers that hadn't raced before? Many drivers rarely go off track and so when it does happen it is somewhat alien to them and therefore they are out of their normal comfort zone which is why we need to be gentle and reassuring with them. I always try to explain to drivers why we do certain things and the implications for them and their car were we to do it differently, most are appreciative of what we do and will stand and chat. A great deal of drivers have never been on a marshals post until then and do learn from their time with us.

I think that most drivers will try to get their car back to the paddock under their own steam as it gives them greater time to work on the car for those days when they might have more than one race.
Stephen - I was not having a go at the Lotus drivers, our visitor was friendly and happy to take our advice.

What I am suggesting is that drivers spending 30 minutes in their tuition period would be equipped with the information BEFORE they need it. So it's balancing 30 minutes with ALL drivers before they start, as opposed to educating them one at a time as they fall off - but each one falling off may delay the meeing.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:38 (Ref:2939840)   #4
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In general I think that's a good idea.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:39 (Ref:2939842)   #5
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By a total fluke I have just written an article for the BMMC South Mids News (about to be published) about this very subject.

Basically, having both done and passed the ARDS test, Nina and I both agree that it is way way too easy. If you look "ARDS test questions" up in Google and then find the Pistons Heads threads you can see how little respect it gets from this perspective.

We believe that not only does it sometimes have a knock on effect on how drivers behave when they come and visit us, it also has an effect on general driving and racing. We have chatted to a lot of club drivers and been amazed at the lack of knowledge about the most fundamental of things. It is not because these guys are in any way stupid, simply becuase they don't know, or haven't been taught, and racing a car, as Nina says, can also isolate you from the big picture.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:54 (Ref:2939854)   #6
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By a total fluke I have just written an article for the BMMC South Mids News (about to be published) about this very subject.

Basically, having both done and passed the ARDS test, Nina and I both agree that it is way way too easy. If you look "ARDS test questions" up in Google and then find the Pistons Heads threads you can see how little respect it gets from this perspective.

We believe that not only does it sometimes have a knock on effect on how drivers behave when they come and visit us, it also has an effect on general driving and racing. We have chatted to a lot of club drivers and been amazed at the lack of knowledge about the most fundamental of things. It is not because these guys are in any way stupid, simply becuase they don't know, or haven't been taught, and racing a car, as Nina says, can also isolate you from the big picture.
still think one of the best ideas was a few years back where drivers got extra points for marshalling 1 day a year
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 09:56 (Ref:2939857)   #7
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Having done by ARDS test more than 5 years ago I cant really remember many of the questions, but to be honest they were simple. But I think the point here is more the new driver briefings that happen at every meeting. If its your first time at the track in most cases it is mandatory to go to the new driver briefing with the CofC in the morning (although a few venues/clubs just cover this by giving you a letter a sign on). I think it would be more benificial if this type of information was given then instead of the ARDS test, after all the ARDS is about driving safely and understanding the flag signals.
On a similar point but looking at it from the driving point of view, maybe marshals should be given laps around tracks on there training days just to show how easy it is to miss flag posts etc or at least see some on board footage of a race.
On the whole the drivers at Donington this weekend seemed to behave well considering that many were novices (and a lot in there first ever race).
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 10:27 (Ref:2939873)   #8
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On a similar point but looking at it from the driving point of view, maybe marshals should be given laps around tracks on there training days just to show how easy it is to miss flag posts etc

id echo that, one of the best things i ever did was fast laps at oulton, with the driver at the time saying, did you see that flag etc......had to look back cos id completely missed them......i know when im racing, your so focussed on whats going on, if your in a pack of cars its easy to miss flags if they arent being waved properly.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 10:39 (Ref:2939879)   #9
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Something that has surprised me when I've had drivers on post is that the meaning of the hazard board seems to be little known. Is this part of the ARDS test?
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 11:11 (Ref:2939886)   #10
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No Hazard Boards are not covered in ARDS, neither are green flag laps, start procedure, safety cars, briefings, penalties, basics of how a meeting is run and the heirarchyof a meeting................etc

To be fair it is all in the Blur Book though....or in the series regs.

I am sure Nina will 100% agree with the two previous posts about seeing flags. She says it will depend on what is around you, where the post is and what is in the background.

I know myself from doing a lot of track days how difficult it is to see flags, and there you only have to worry about two, red and yellow..LOL

What I meant in my last post was not that guys and girls are missing flags, but the lack of knowledge about what the flags mean and a whole bunch of other stuff. I'll post a link to article when I publish the Newsletter. I am most certainly not blaming the drivers, (most of whom are top notch in this area anyway). I just think there is an issue in the sytem as a whole somewhere.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 11:26 (Ref:2939894)   #11
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EVERY racer, when they enter a meeting, signs a declaration that they have read and understand the regulations.
If the break those reg, by not knowing flag signals etc, and it is reported to race control, they will be interviewd, and in most cases a penalty will be applied.
If they are new to the circuit, it is a mandatory requirement that they attend the new drivers briefing. Failure to do so normally results in their wallet being a bit lighter than when they arrived.
The Clerks and all other officials are there to run the meeting and assist where necessary, NOT hold the hands of any competotor who doesn't know what they are meant to be doing
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 11:51 (Ref:2939909)   #12
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The Clerks and all other officials are there to run the meeting and assist where necessary, NOT hold the hands of any competotor who doesn't know what they are meant to be doing
Absolutely.

I am suggesting that new competitors are given some useful information that ultimately will help them AND the organisers run a slicker event.

I'm not even suggesting they get tested on it - and a printed sheet will just get filed with the rest of their paperwork when they start racing.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 11:52 (Ref:2939910)   #13
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Thinking about it I don't really think this needs training for new drivers...

I think provided the marshals responding to the incident take control and issue clear instructions (after all, they will most likely have more experience of this) to the driver that would be best. Sometimes training can be forgotten in the heat of the moment - driver confused and disorientated etc might not be in the best position to be making decisions about what to do, whereas the marshals will.....

Once a driver has experienced it a couple of times it will be much firmer set in his/her mind what needs to be done....

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Old 15 Aug 2011, 11:52 (Ref:2939911)   #14
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id echo that, one of the best things i ever did was fast laps at oulton, with the driver at the time saying, did you see that flag etc......had to look back cos id completely missed them......i know when im racing, your so focussed on whats going on, if your in a pack of cars its easy to miss flags if they arent being waved properly.
when you said that on post ive since remembered it and I dont get anywhere near as nonplussed as to why a drivers miss a flags. watching onboards on warm up laps its easy to understand why.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 11:59 (Ref:2939915)   #15
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I am suggesting that new competitors are given some useful information that ultimately will help them AND the organisers run a slicker event.
They are, it's called the New Drivers Briefing!!
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 12:07 (Ref:2939926)   #16
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when you said that on post ive since remembered it and I dont get anywhere near as nonplussed as to why a drivers miss a flags. watching onboards on warm up laps its easy to understand why.
Perhaps that explains the driver who missed three consecutive penalty boards and three consecutive black flags over six laps at Donington yesterday! To be slightly fair he was in the lead and fighting to keep cars behind aswell as lapping people, but to miss a startline signal 6 times round is a bit... well, it just doesn't shout "I'm looking at you" very much.

Going back to the original post by deadsquirrel, down at the Esses we were *very* impressed by the MSVR Trackday Trophy drivers. On Saturday we had a BMW in a spectacular roll after a (probably kerb-induced) suspension collapse which stopped smack in the middle of the Esses, broadside on. The rest of the drivers were mostly flawless in their observance of flags - to the point that we had people slowing a long way before they got to me on post 23, and that was before the safety car had come out.

They then took absolutely accurate notice of the hand signals being given to them from marshals on the circuit about the direction they should take and the line into the first part of the turn, which meant we could get the tractor out from behind the Cage, across the circuit, and snatch the car into the infield gap, then get the debris cleared. Those dealing with the trackside clearance were very impressed and asked that their comments be fed back to RC.

We can be very quick to criticise drivers when they misbehave so personally I hope the positive comments made it back to all the drivers. They deserved some praise on Saturday.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 12:49 (Ref:2939942)   #17
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EVERY racer, when they enter a meeting, signs a declaration that they have read and understand the regulations.
If the break those reg, by not knowing flag signals etc, and it is reported to race control, they will be interviewd, and in most cases a penalty will be applied.
If they are new to the circuit, it is a mandatory requirement that they attend the new drivers briefing. Failure to do so normally results in their wallet being a bit lighter than when they arrived.
The Clerks and all other officials are there to run the meeting and assist where necessary, NOT hold the hands of any competotor who doesn't know what they are meant to be doing
Absolutely agree with this - and when Nina is racing we read the regs, any supplemetary regs - I take the BB with me.

Maybe rather sadly, but when we marshal Startline we take the trouble to find and print whatever series regs we can for the relevant meeting. That way we know what procedures should be used and can also answer drivers questions about their own series....!!

On a general note, on startline if I had a quid for the number of times I have been asked/argued with regarding the re-grid positions then I would be rich. Yet this is laid out clearly in the BB. We always use the same formula unless series regs state otherwise.

I just think that the ARDS could be used to point drivers in the direction of the things that they do need to know...and make them more aware of what they need to know....IMHO the written element is just a bit too easy, and an oppurtunity for at least some education is being missed.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 12:53 (Ref:2939948)   #18
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They are, it's called the New Drivers Briefing!!
Yes indeed - and I have seen a series run where a good 60% of the drivers needed to go - and just didn't. Yet nothing was done....

I have also seen it where the briefing starts only 10 mins before Q start time.....
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 13:00 (Ref:2939952)   #19
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As far as gravel traps are concerned I suspect that most drivers know in theory what to do. However, we need to separate theory from reality; when a car goes off in a race the reflex known to psychologists as "fight or flight" takes over.

On the "fight" aspect I can do no better than what a Formula Ford driver said to me a few years ago after having dug his car into the gravel trying to drive out: "Ask me in the paddock & I'll tell you that when I drive into a gravel trap I should put the car into neutral & wait for the marshals; in a race it just doesn't work like that - your brain says 'you drove it in, now drive it out. You're in a race, so you need to drive out fast'"

On the "flight" aspect, it's a case of knowing the car's in a dangerous place & wanting to get out of danger as quickly as possible.

We, as bystanders, can take a more objective, less adrenalin-fuelled view of the situation.

Regarding cars limping back to the pits, the Blue Book says:

"Q 14.2.2. No vehicle able to proceed under its own power
shall be stopped either on the track or the verges of the
course but shall proceed to the pits or paddock."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't?
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 13:01 (Ref:2939953)   #20
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Yes indeed - and I have seen a series run where a good 60% of the drivers needed to go - and just didn't. Yet nothing was done....

I have also seen it where the briefing starts only 10 mins before Q start time.....
For new drivers its a major attack on the senses, when I started racing I was fortunate to know what was going on. But you have normally a 20 min window to sign on get to scrutineering (and pass) then get ready for the quali. Throw in the fact they normally have the first driver briefing (you can get to) at 8:30 when your meant to be in the assy area at 8:40 you can hardly expect them to know what to do when it all goes wrong. They are still trying to figure out which way is up...
I tend to agree with the previous post about marshals taking control of each situation. No matter who the driver is the adrenalin is still pumping and if you have been taken off your not going to be in the best mood anyway.
But as has alread been said, the instructions are all in the finals or BB so there is no excuse for not knowing what is going on appart from being to lazy to find out.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 13:16 (Ref:2939959)   #21
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You need to remember that when we visit you something has gone wrong and we aren't thinking straight, are wound up or generally don't know which way is up. I know when we stop we are supposed to cut the electrics but on the occasions I've broken down in my haste to get over the barriers I normally forget, it's not lack of knowledge it's frutration.

As for missing signals to drivers, these are normally on the start line and start lines generally fall before a corner so you are focused on the corner and not the start line signal which is often obscured by armco and fencing.

One thing I would ask is that if I visit you, unless I have fallen into the tyre wall or I am laying unconscious, please please don't grab my arm it really ****es me off, I'd rather love you all from a distance.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 14:19 (Ref:2939997)   #22
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This subject comes up alot i think on whether drivers know what to do when they are involved in an incident. and also what marshals wish then to do. Most marshals i have spoken to at oulton park all believe that as part of getting your ARDS you should spend at least one day on post as a marshal. some drivers don't understand what we have to do when an incident arrises and the sorts of things we hask them to do to make our job easier. one big example is electrics. most drivers should turn there electrics off when we ask them to get out of the car. but 9 times out of 10 they don't and its left to us. afew drivers i have spoken to also think that this is a good idea.

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Old 15 Aug 2011, 14:32 (Ref:2940002)   #23
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I got my race licence in 1974 no Hazard Boards, red flags, marshals in orange etc etc, many of my contemperies still race, and still make mistakes, it's called 'being human'.
Next time you're at a circuit sit on the track and trying to pick out the flag point - it's not easy, believe me.
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 15:32 (Ref:2940041)   #24
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Next time you're at a circuit sit on the track and trying to pick out the flag point - it's not easy, believe me.
That i can vouch for!
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 15:59 (Ref:2940051)   #25
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Next time you're at a circuit sit on the track and trying to pick out the flag point - it's not easy, believe me.
I can't remember who told me when I was even more green than I am now (and after the weekend in the sun I'm fairly red!) that when going to a new track, or a post that you're unfamiliar with you should walk back to the previous post if time allows and then walk the racing line back towards your post. It gives some idea of the view the drivers have, albeit rather more slowly and from slightly greater height. It's helped me out on several occasions since.

Also, I remember seeing something on telly a few years back which showed a driver's eye movements while tanking it round a circuit (I can't remember which driver, but it was in an F3 car I think). Where they were looking did not correspond to where you might have expected them to, as their eyes were at least half a turn ahead of their track position for a good part of the lap. Must ask the wife if she can recall what programme it was on...
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